Indie game storeFree gamesFun gamesHorror games
Game developmentAssetsComics
SalesBundles
Jobs
Tags

Will adult games be forced into "direct payments" instead of "collected by itch.io"? Locked

A topic by HH Richards created Apr 25, 2023 Views: 14,732 Replies: 113
This topic was locked by No Time To Play May 07, 2023

being too controversial

Viewing posts 1 to 30
(+15)

I've heard from a few developers that there is a policy change that potentially makes adult indie games unfeasible on itch.io. I've also seen this post by a developer explaining why they have delisted their paid game: https://perverteer.itch.io/tales-from-the-unending-void/devlog/521407/paid-versi...

To quote the post: 

The past few weeks, an email has been sent informing adult content creators that they can only sell their games on itch.io by enabling "direct payments", instead of bulk payments through itch.io, from now on. They did so without prior warning and with only a 30-day period for developers to cease payments or switching to direct payments. As all major payment processors available on itch.io (Paypal, Stripe) have clauses preventing the sale of adult content, this is not a viable option and will only result in getting my merchant account banned.

I haven't seen any post or announcement myself from itch.io, so wondered if this is true? 

I'm a lone developer, and switching to direct payments and being responsible for tax would be a massive amount of effort for me, so I probably wouldn't do it. Which means that I (and itchio!) would lose money. 

So I wondered if anyone else was experiencing this, and if so, what are you doing about it? 

Pinned ReplyAdmin (4 edits) (+8)

Will adult games be forced into “direct payments” instead of “collected by itch.io”?

We haven’t made any global policy changes, but we have notified some developers individually through our support system that they are no longer eligible for our Payouts system, and that in order to continue accepting payments they will have to switch to “Direct to you”.

We may continue to issue account updates as time goes on. The criteria for the account limitation are directly stated in the notice. I’m sharing a copy of that message here so you don’t have to depend other people’s posts to see what it says:

https://itch.io/static/payouts_unavailable.html

When a seller uses our Payouts system, we take on the responsibility and the associated risk for the content they distribute. We strive to offer our platform to as many independent creators as possible, but, since itch.io utilizes multiple third-party services to facilitate its payment services, we have to be careful about the risk we take on.

We understand this is difficult for some account owners, but as stated in the notice above, sometimes we need to balance the needs of our community at large over individual sellers to ensure we can continue to operate smoothly indefinitely.

Lastly, I wanted to address one thing specifically since it appears some people are confused:

Changing your revenue share setting will not affect the decision on your account At no time have we ever asked an account to set their revenue share to something specific. If other people are suggesting that then they concluded that on their own. When we evaluated our approach, revenue share was definitely something we considered in aggregate, but there is no minimum revenue share requirement for accounts to have access to our Payouts system. itch.io, just like your games, is “pay what you want.” Since the day we launched Open Revenue Sharing, we have encouraged developers to consider the value we provide to them when setting up their account. If there was a scenario in which we needed to enforce a minimum revenue share, we could do that, but that is not what we are doing here.

Deleted 1 year ago
(+39)

The decision is being made by evaluating the risk each individual dev is carrying, cool. But it still makes no sense that the devs that Steam has considered safe to work with, Patreon has considered safe to work with. somehow aren't up to Itch's standards? Makes zero sense. 


On the other hand, I propose an alternate point of view. By enforcing this in such an unprofessional way, Itch is no longer safe *for the developers*. There are no clear guidelines, literally anyone can be hit at any random moment. You're simply instilling fear into the devs you're working with and the only solution for the devs is to find someone else to work with. All I can say is: good luck

(1 edit) (+12)

Leafo, thank you for this and for responding here. I'm sure you're getting a lot of noise and grief (I saw some of it over on Discord) and it has to be a bit frustrating. 

From reading through your reply here, my understanding is that you feel Itch is being direct and clearly stating the criteria that are being considered ("... including nature of content, risk, disputes, and the resources required by our team to review payments associated with your account."). And you have emphatically stated that there is no minimum revenue sharing amount, but that it is one of the factors your team has looked at ("revenue share was definitely something we considered in aggregate, but there is no minimum revenue share requirement."). So, it is not a deciding factor, and it is not one that sounds like it can be quantifiable, but it is a factor. 

I recognize not all decisions can be reduced to a set of numbers, plugged into a formula, and give a predictable "Yes" or "No." That said, I hope you can understand that for a lot of us as creators, this also causes us a lot of anxiety as we didn't know there were any issues here for you/Itch or what we could do to help reduce the risk for everyone involved. I recognize you may not be able to go into much more detail on what those risks are (I'm sure some of it is sensitive if it involves communications with Itch's partners), but what I'm hearing from a lot of developers is fear and anxiety that they may be next, and wanting to know if there is anything they can do to help themselves and Itch reduce the attendant risks. 

If it's not about raising revenue sharing, is there anything developers can do to help reduce the risk for Itch (and, by extension, suspension of the "collected by Itch" payment method for developers)? 

Thank you.

P.S., I hope I got everything correct and didn't misrepresent anything. If so, it was not intentional.

(+7)

Please explain to me: 

How is it that I got my first email back on February 14th telling me to change to "Direct to you" and still kept the "collected by itch" option till 20th April? The only difference was that on February 15th I offered a 10% revenue share (used to be 0%). 

My mod mistakenly downgraded the revenue share to 0% again back on the 16th or 17th of April and then we got the email on the 20th of April that the decision is final.

If revenue share was never an issue, then how come you didn't change my payout option back in March after 30 days since the first email?

Admin (2 edits) (+8)

Why didn’t you update your account to be in compliance within the timeline we gave you? We very clearly communicated our requirements to you.

how come you didn’t change my payout option back in March after 30 days since the first email

We gave you more time. Since we knew more accounts were going to be affected we wanted to build out a system to enable the transition of accounts such the all pending earnings are delivered in the fairest way possible. Since it took time to get this tested and deployed, you got more time to sort out your account without us making any forced changes. Based on the info you’ve shared, you made no changes to your account and waited until we actually triggered the update for the final payout. So, despite the notice we sent you, you were able to utilize our Payouts system for a bit longer.

You changed your revenue share during this time period under your own volition; no one on our team asked you to make any changes or told you that making these changes would have any effect. The changes you made during this time had no bearing on the preparations we were making for rolling out reduced Payout availability. You were already notified that you were affected at this point.

Additionally, we noticed the confusion you had in a support message you sent to us more recently and even offered to retroactively change the revenue share setting on purchases that had already happened. This is something we typically never do, but we wanted to do right by you because we didn’t want you to feel like you were misled. For whatever reason, you’ve left this information out in your public posts.

I’m sorry for the somewhat stern response, but I feel like you’re trying to push some weird angle with regards to the revenue share, and at this point it’s misleading others. This we do not appreciate.

Once again, I’m sorry that you account was affected by this, but we are trying to make this transition for you as smooth and fair as possible for you. Hopefully you can at least see that.

(+19)

> Why didn’t you update your account to be in compliance within the timeline we gave you?

Because as stated in my first-ever response to you that I don't have Paypal or Stripe in my country and those are the only options you have for the "direct to you" payout method. I had 0 response from you after that. I sent you multiple emails and kept reminding you that the 30 days period is running out for me and there is nothing I can do. Yet, you only decided to respond after 2 months with your "final decision".

(+19)

Where was the communication that you were giving me more time instead of me having to send you several emails to figure out what could be the solution?

(+8)

What does "associated risk" mean when even devs with extremely low refund rates are also hit? I had 0.3% refunds, and haven't had any in the past 2 months. Average game on Steam has 12% refunds.

(+19)

> We haven’t made any global policy changes
> Please read out partners' TOS

> TOS: Adult content isn't allowed


The only way I can read it is that NSFW was never supposed to be monetized through Itch's system. So basically it does indeed affect every single NSFW dev

(+5)

Thanks leafo for replying about this. We appreciate everything you're doing, and I understand how you want to protect your platform. 

However this has got a lot of adult devs worried (myself included) and would like to know what the decision to force some adult devs into 'direct payments' is based on? 

You mention "risk", so there must be some threshold. Is this only affecting the developers of really taboo content? 

Is it that "taboo" content with 0% rev share is bad, but 'vanilla' adult or LGBT content with 30% rev share might be ok? 

(+16)

I have two big problems with this:

  • Exactly no one who buys adult content wants to use "direct pay".  You're basically giving your credit card number to a stranger at that point, and that completely eliminates any safety associated with buying content through a site like itch.io.
  • You aren't just hurting developers.  You're also hurting large numbers of users who have already paid for content from those developers, and now have no way to get future updates for the software that they have paid for.

There are plenty of ways for a company with as high a sales volume as Itch to deal with adult content.  Use a separate merchant account through a bank that understands what it is being used for, is aware of the high chargeback rate, and charges higher fees accordingly to make up for that.  Then require that adult content publishers have a certain threshold of revenue sharing to compensate for the higher payment processing costs.  Nobody would fault you for that sort of decision.  It is simply part of the cost of doing business.

Unfortunately, there are *no* realistic ways for individual developers to deal with it, because companies like Stripe and Paypal have blanket bans on adult content, so all the services that are available to an average consumers are unusable, and I can pretty much guarantee that nobody, and I mean nobody in that space has the sort of industry clout or the sales volume to be worth the hassle for any bank that provides merchant accounts, much less the money and expertise to set up their own PCI-compliant billing service.  And small companies in this space who have tried to do so in the past have usually found themselves quickly shut down.

And your customers, of course, are caught in the middle.

Let me be a little more clear here, in case that second point above wasn't clear enough.  What you're doing amounts to large-scale fraud against users who have bought content through your platform.  And given the egregiousness of the way this was handled, the lack of any warning to customers, the huge number of people effectively defrauded by your company, and the completely 100% adhesive nature of your terms of service,  I can pretty much guarantee that that the class action waiver that I just noticed in your terms of service won't be worth the cost of the paper that you didn't print it on.  If this ends up in court, this decision will be seen as a very expensive mistake.

So the way I figure it, you have two options: refund every penny you have charged anyone for banned content without taking that money away from developers, and eat those costs as a cost of choosing to leave an entire industry, or figure out a way to solve this problem of your own creation in a way that doesn't cause financial harm to both developers and end users en masse.

And it would be wise to make a commitment to do one or the other before things go too far and you can no longer take it back, and before your former customers start issuing so many chargebacks that it causes your merchant account provider to shut you down entirely, making your previous problems seem like a stubbed toe by comparison.  Because that's pretty much the only way that this will realistically end unless you find a way to fix it.

Deleted 1 year ago
(+14)

This happened to me. Itch.io gave me a 30 day time then my games cannot accept payment anymore

If the current payment processor paypal initiated this ban.Then itch.io should create his own payment processor just like onlyfans did

I am ok with paying any amount of fees that itch.io will charge

But please give us adult game developers a new payment method to sell our games

(+23)

I just find out that there are many payment processors that are built for handling adult transactions.The full list can be found at this website

https://pornwebmasters.com/adult-payment-processing-sites

Itch.io please look at the available options and integrate new payment processor into the itch.io website

Show post...

Ugh, so itch.io is actually ditching the adult game developers!

I mean, seriously? That's the only reason I even bother with itch.io in the first place, to play those games! 

Looks like we'll have to switch over to gamejolt now. They've got their own dang payment processor that takes credit cards, so hopefully they'll be more welcoming to us dirty-minded folks

(+3)

Gamejolt deleted my adult game a few years ago though. They've been very clear that they don't want adult games.

Show post...

It's just unbelievable! 

So now it's all up to itch.io whether they give a damn about the adult developers or not. If they actually care, they should step up and create a brand new payment processor specifically for adult games

But if they don't, then what? The poor adult game developers will be left to starve. It's just not fair. They deserve better than this

Deleted 1 year ago
Moderator (1 edit) (+17)

"Spread evil?" Speaking as a member of this community, that sounds like Christian fundamentalism. You need to re-examine some assumptions.

Deleted 1 year ago
Moderator(+27)

So don't look at it. That's your personal choice. You don't get to force it on other adults.

(+8)

Okay, so you're one of those obnoxious militant asexuals who makes all other asexuals look bad by association. That or a troll. Fine, you're awful, whatever. If nothing else, you're a useful target to argue against for opening up a discussion to justify the existence of adult content to whatever buffoons are actually responsible for this idiotic decision.
Let's look at the causality of adult games and other forms of pornography, specifically pornography with fetishes that would be really bad in real life since that seems to be what you're focusing on (with the blatantly incorrect assumption that all of it is rape or similarly bad stuff; it's not).

Possibility #1: Consumption/production of porn with dangerous fetish increases likehood of people to do that fetish in real life, as you say
Possibility #2: Consumption/production of porn with dangerous fetish helps people get pre-existing desires out of their system, decreasing likelihood of people to do that fetish in real life
Possibility #3: No correlation between consumption/production of porn and likelihood of people to do that fetish in real life; they have a complete disconnect between their thoughts on the actual act and fictional depictions of it

I would guess that all of these occur to some degree, varying from person to person, with #3 being the most common, and #2 being common enough to cancel out #1. I don't actually know, there'd have to be some huge international statistical survey to even begin to figure this out, and if it's happened I don't know it. But until it's certain, the possibility of #2 seems important enough to not just throw it all away out of fear of #1.

There's also a variant of #2, where people try to use porn to get whatever messed up desires out of their system, but fail and end up doing it anyway. This is the most common cause of "There have been many incidents when people playing these games actually did the stuff shown in the game". They would have done the bad thing regardless, the porn was simply an indication of their interest; correlation does not imply causation. Also, though I admit that I don't know the statistics, this also seems like another explanation for "Also many people suffer from psychological problems from playing these games."; maybe it's just that people with psychological problems were more likely to play them.

Regardless, even in the absolute worst case, if you are completely correct that porn only increases the likelihood of rape and other similar sorts of bad stuff and psychological problems... they still wouldn't be "ruining the world" as you've said. They'd be causing a few serious problems, which would get thrown into an ocean of other even worse problems. You know what is ruining the world? Evil and incompetent governments and corporations trying to control everything and everyone and horde all the world's wealth. One of the many methods by which they do this is... censorship! Controlling what we can say, what information and ideas we are allowed to access. They regularly go after adult content because it is such an easy target (because of beliefs like yours), and once they have some laws in place to control it... hey look it turns out that those laws contained a bunch of loopholes that make it apply to stuff other than porn, and sets some precedents that make it easy to expand further with even more laws, now everything is censored, now we are no longer able to even talk about it or know about it let alone resist it whenever some government or corporation destroys the environment or uses slave labor to make their product or commits genocide.
That seems a lot more "evil" to me than drawing or writing about people having sex.

Deleted 1 year ago
Moderator(+4)

That's horrific, misleading, and doesn't help the discussion in any way.

No time to play stop harassing me !!!

(+15)

Thise debate has been ongoing since there were computer games. we gamers  are sick of it.  every year a new offended knowittall comes along, claiming killing in video games makes people violent and virtue signals on their blog, spreading hate to take down game companies that corrupt the youth. same thing as your bs argument about the adult stuff.  adults do not like teletubbies. adults like stuff that kids are not allowed to do. like driving cars. going camping without supervision. staying up late. and of course    catering to sexual interests, inlcuding playing lewd or violent games.

You do not understand concept of freedom. Here it means to let people do what they like, even if you do not like what they do. 

Do not come to place for adults and preach they do wrong, because they do like adult stuff. And what triggers me especaially ,is your demonstrably  wrong arguments. Find a study that crorelates violence, for instance rape,  with popularity of certain video games, and manages to proof causation and not only correlation. Then we talk.

And like written elsewhere here, I think if you find    causation it will be    that violent people like to play violent games - if they play at all. It is interest based. There is nothing more to it. And I will have you know that there were serious attempts to proofe that those violent games do cause crimes. they failed to proof this for like 30+ years. This was  debunked long ago, so do not rehash false arguments to impose your morals onto others.

Deleted 1 year ago
Moderator(+7)

Yet you're annoying people to the point that there have been dozens of reports against you just for posts in this topic. You said you were going to stop. Now you're back?

(+1)

Dude I just mentioned at the end of my post that I was defending myself and I did not want to break itch.io rules.

The thing was that people just started attacking me even though I had stopped and calling me weird stuff like 'obnoxious' and 'cringe'.

I got annoyed and had to clear my position.

However I make it clear I have no intention of starting an argument or to go off topic

(+5)

Your grasp of English is lacking. That someone likes something does not imply or state that this is an exlusive thing. I can like ice cream and still like vegetables. And with that sentence  "What other people haven't proved in 30 years I'll try to prove it in a few weeks" you have proven my allegation that you are a knowitall. And now lets return to topic, as these posts will probably get deleted.

(+9)

There is a NSFW Tag on Adult games, isn't that enough?

 Please keep in mind that these are games, and they have PLENTY of warnings before experiencing it, now matter what... They are fictional forever, Data Pixels on the screen, if anyone is fragile enough to be affected by this then they really need a reality check or a Guardian watching over them as they play anything.
if you see any game promoting "Bad content" or "Hateful" then please contact the Dev to atleast give a NSFW warning and tag their game as NSFW so those who chose the "Filter out AdultContent" setting won't get this viewed to them, if they didn't comply Then i "THINK" you have the right to report them.
Goodluck on maintaining your purity.

(+8)

Most jump here from Steam JUST for H games lol. 

(+4)

So very true. It would be itneresting to know how many games are adult here. You cannot do this with searching for adult tag, as games can be adult without having a related tag like nsfw or adult. Changing setting to show no adult content does not change number of games in browse.

(+4)

Steam is safer than Itch for adult developers. They have a clear set of rules: no glorification of rape, no loli. Everything else goes. 
Also, they check your game before listing it, so once checked, you are OK. 

(2 edits) (+14)

So the options are:

  • Use direct payments to Paypal (but paypal don't like adult content so presumably won't allow this)
  • Use direct payments to Stripe (but Stripe don't like adult content so presumably won't allow this)
  • Make the game free

Are there any other options? 

I don't even know if I can delete a game, because people who've bought it still need access to their purchase. 

(5 edits) (+8)

PayPal and Stripe don’t allow adult transactions and using their services will result in getting your merchant account banned. It’s absolutely ridiculous and beyond frustrating

And yes you can’t delete your game either as itch.io policy states that if you delete your game. You will have to issue a refund to all the buyers!

(+3)

Surely not! I think a game can be made to be unlisted, but will still appear in buyers' list of purchased games. Giving everyone their money back would be very bad, I've sold quite a few over the last few years 😅

Deleted 1 year ago
(+2)

Says the fellow neckbeard in an itch.io forum....

No neckbeard shave every 4 days

(+2)

Shaving with mommy's razor everyday doesn't exclude you from the title given to you for the fact we are on a literal gaming website telling people to go get laid in a forum. 🤣😆😂

Gaming  website doesn't mean neckbeards cobber. Things have progressed since 1998 believe it or not. Think outside the box a little. As for mommy's razor why would that be in my house? Wouldn't that be at hers?

(+2)

From the looks of your commentary, it hasn't changed one bit.

No sure what you are getting at here. Have fun with your adult games. Hope your right hand is nice and tired

(+3)

Ignorance is bliss.

(+1)

I haven't shaved since 1983. I also haven't been told I look like Jimmy Osmond for that same period of time. Feels like a win to me.

Show post...

And I don't even want to talk about the second problem

It is the thing that comes afterwards.Right now adult game developers can't even sell their game :(

The second problem is paying the taxes collected from EU buyers. It requires you to create your own company first. It's a goddamn nightmare for adult game developers!

(+3)

Creating a company isn't the bad part. In fact that's quite sensible for the limited liability benefit. But collecting and paying all those worldwide taxes looks like it'll be quite complicated. 

But anyway,  we can't even consider this option because neither of the payment providers (paypal and stripe) will allow adult content.

(+1)

There has got to be a loophole...

(+2)

Did pp change policies? I just looked andthis is listed in policy

ayPal requires pre-approval to accept payments for certain services as detailed in the chart below.
Mature Audience Content
Any adult content delivered digitally including video on demand (VOD) and web-cam activities. PayPal may be restricted from processing payments in certain jurisdictions for adult DVD’s, magazines and other adult themed products or services.


you can stream real porn and get payment wit hpaypal.  But you need approval of pp. Or how do all those adult devs having a patreon get money? patreon collects money with paypal too. Of course, if you live in one of them unfree countries that try tomeddle in payments for stuff that is legal elsewhere, you have it tough.

Makes you wonder how big player like Steam does it.  I know of smaller player, nutaku, with paid adult games, they do use credit cards directly.  Or at least not  with stripe.   They use   probiller and yes, that processor does do work for some hardcore porn sites as well. At least that is the user side of the coin. I do not know how payout to    devs is handled. But I have seen games on nutaku that are on itch as well.

(+1)

Steam has its own payment processor. 
Also, paypal is allowing to buy sex stuff, it just doesn't allow the sale ( unless they have changed that as I have seen above ). 
Nutaku pays directly to your bank account, not Paypal or anything else ( again, as far as I know, I set up my account with them years ago ). 

(+1)

Note: If one can use PayPal to purchase "sex stuff", others must logically be able to sell that same "sex stuff"; otherwise, where is the money going?

I have used PayPal to make purchases on websites that provide adult materials.

Nope, not really. 
PayPal has its own logic, most times. 
They allow you to buy, but, they don't allow you to sell. And that is most likely because of "frauds" involving adult content and because they don't want to bother with that. 

(1 edit) (+2)

Again - every PayPal transaction has both a buyer and a seller. So, if people can buy something with PayPal, someone else is selling that thing.

If no one was allowed to sell such things via PayPal, then there would be nothing for anyone to buy, so in effect buying such things would not be possible either.

If you mean PayPal might shut down a seller's account due to violation of terms or too many chargebacks and such, but would not shut down the accounts of the people making the purchases? I imagine that's correct.

Deleted 1 year ago
(+10)

Many adult games are bad, sure. But many gamesof any genre are bad. 

Some of us are just trying to earn a living making quality content that just happens to be for grown-ups.

(1 edit) (+1)

It is true that there some games of all genres that our bad.

But dude the reason 'adult' content is called 'adult' content is that it is bad and not for kids.

18+ games rarely feature good stuff unless it's about something positive like if it's a horror game, but too horror for children, but the ending is good and the evil guys are defeated so that is a good game.

But that's not the case with most 18+ games 😞

They consist of unpleasant subjects. You probably understand what I'm referring to.

(1 edit) (+18)

Please fuck off :(

This thread is not created to discuss whether the adult content is bad or good for the society!

What is your problem ??

Did I say anything to you ?

And I don't remember reading in the rules that you can't discuss evils of adult content.

Admit it man. reason you are opposing me is because you yourself make damn adult games.

Moderator(+16)

3gnude has a point. We should probably stay on topic. This is a serious concern for a lot of people.

Okay there are people who like this stuff but I'm a guy who hates this stuff.

I'll try to avoid discussing it in the community.

Moderator(+8)
But dude the reason 'adult' content is called 'adult' content is that it is bad and not for keeping kids.

And that's why kids aren't allowed to access such games on itch.io, or in fact any place run by responsible people.

(+1)

But it's also bad for adults.

Moderator(+25)

You don't get to decide that for me, or any other adult.

(+1)

Philosophy isn’t on-topic either

What do you mean ?

(+3)

What is good for somebody is basically the entirety of axiology. It cannot be shooed away with an off-hand comment like that of NTtP’s, neither does it belong in this thread, much like the politics of pornography.

Easier words please 😅

Deleted 1 year ago
(+22)

Wow, ANOTHER site trying to commit suicide via censorship? What is even with that, it's been happening more and more lately, despite the fact that everyone should really know better after the whole tumblr fiasco. I know hosting is expensive and that sites need to make shady deals with blatantly evil companies just to survive, but this is just, counterproductive to survival. I'll admit, this shit right here is slightly less incompetent than the usual methods of banning adult content, since it's less comprehensive and isn't yet another automated purge, but I'm guessing it's just Step 1, before things get really bad. I've said it before elsewhere, and at this rate I'm sure I'll say it a dozen more times in the coming years: porn is a canary in a coal mine, dying first to detect attempts at controlling everyone via censorship. Non-adult game devs: if you're reading this, I suggest that you too look for (or make!) other platforms to host your games, because you're next.

(+23)

Funny how Leafo is ignoring anything related to this topic and replying to other people on Discord.

We've seen the cheeky tweets after Gamejolt banned everyone. 

Man up and talk to the creators here. Address this issue.

(2 edits) (+11)

The cowardly way this is being handled is entirely why this decision is pissing me off. If payment processors are breathing down their necks, they really should just out and out say so.

Edit:
Editing to clarify that I still disagree with the way this situation has been handled, as it has introduced unnecessary apprehension around NSFW games. However, there may be more going on behind the scenes that would require itch not to disclose which specific rules are being broken. It seems NSFW games are still safe for now.

(+6)

Turns out it's about revenue share

(+8)

Wait, as in the flexible revenue sharing system itch uses? Why target adult creators if that's the case, rather than require a minimum amount like 1% - 5%?

Deleted 1 year ago
(+2)

They should do a threshold system and charge extra for adult content. Adult content is bound to make a hassle, because people use report button needlessly.

The free revenue share is a silly concept. Make it only apply for yearly sales of less than threshold, like 100 bucks or so. So the unsuccessfully devs can be happy about getting most of their earned sales. While  the successfull games should  give minimum amount and a   mandatory bonus for 18+ stuff, because increased maintanence that 18+ stuff requires.

(+1)

Seems negotiable.

(+8)

Leafo's response on Discord :


When you opt your account into our payouts system, you are asking us to take on the liability of selling your work on all of our merchant accounts, payment processing services, etc. As described in the email, there are many factors that contribute to the risk associated with running an account for someone. Our goal is to enable the most creators to use our service as possible. However, when a seller knowingly shares content that may pose potential issues, it becomes unfair to the rest of the creators we serve. 

I try to avoid mentioning revenue share in these types of discussions, as we aren't asking people to set their rev share to anything specific to get access. But, the arrangement I described above can be especially disheartening when many of these sellers also set their rev share to 0. I'm fairly sure the devs are very much aware of the risks and are purely taking advantage of the situation. It's a lose-lose situation for itch.io. Unfortunately that leaves us in a tricky position and we sometimes need to make the difficult decision about what accounts are eligible for certain features. 

Hope that gives you some clarity about our process.

Show post...

If this is about revenue

It's utterly ridiculous! How hard is it to ask them to share their revenue? 

But no, instead of taking a reasonable approach. They are banning the account of adult creators

If this is about payment processing

Just add a new payment processor that allows adult transactions

And don't fucking take that difficult decision of banning their account from accepting payments 

(3 edits) (+4)

Thank you for sharing this, and thanks to HH for this thread. I read about this on a forum for developers but there wasn't much detail, so I appreciate that you're trying to put information here and share what's being written on Discord. 

Like some of the other devs here, I have not received this notice so maybe I'm "safe" for now? I've always had my revenue share at 10% as I appreciated what Itch was doing for creators and it seemed reasonable. My title is also free here so it's donations only, so my payments may not have many issues with fraudulent charges and card disputes. 

I do wish, though, there was a greater level of clarity from Itch on the criteria they used to determine who was getting forced to the other payment system, giving the targeted devs a heads-up in advance, and allowing them to implement revenue share (assuming that all the devs subjected to this had their revenue share at 0%), and letting the rest of us know through official communications rather than the grapevine. 

Sigh. 

Edited:  Realized I was conflating deafperv and HH Richards, so edited to clarify.

(1 edit) (+10)

Itch deeply dropping the ball here and the fact that they haven't made the statements publicly about this doubly so. Deeply unprofessional on the part of Leaf and co. Especially mere months after they advertise with this post

(1 edit) (+7)

Leafo did not clarify whether this a payment processing issue and going to affect all adult game developers

I would have gladly paid the 10-30% revenue share if i had known that they will ban my account for not doing so

Deleted post
(+2)

I just checked dlsite. The website is good but I am concerned about the fees charged

From what I have heard they charge a 60% fee

So if my game is 4$ , i will only get 1.6$. Is this true ?

Deleted post
(+1)

It's around 40% or 45% or so, that's becasue it's not just DLsite, you have to trough Curious Factory in the west so they have to split revenue, as an additional platform there's no downside since it's an easy way to get to the japanese audience which would be difficult to do on your own, as your only platform tho is not as appealing.

Deleted 1 year ago
(+7)

Unfortunately many comments on this thread have gone off-topic. But theres been a good conversation about this in the #meta channel on the itch discord. I recommend anyone interested in reading that. 

BUT there is still no good solution. Leafo admits this is about revenue share. It seem that some people have been setting it to 0 (not cool guys), and that seems to have annoyed itch to the point where even promising to share more revenue isn't enough to solve the problem. 

Leafo has explicitly said this isn’t about revenue share. It may have contributed to their decision, but it is not the main reason.

(+4)

Maybe. It's frustratingly vague. Leafo mentioned rev share, but also that increasing it wouldn't help either. That's why I'm very confused what to do. 

 I'm still reading the Discord chat tbh. Interestingly the dev of the highest earning game on itch is affected, which I assume means that itch is likely to lose a lot of money from this change. 

Deleted post
(+6)

Fuck off with your disinformation attempt.

Leafo refused to explain why adult games are restricted and only mentioned revshare is part of the main reason.

If he outright refused to explain further, and only mentions revshare, then the only main reason he disclosed is revshare! He said it himself!

If revshare is the reason, he should force all games to raise the revshare to 30%, why send shady emails telling NSFW gamedevs that their payments won't be processed anymore?

If it's not revshare alone, then Leafo must explain further! Otherwise itchio should've raise the revshare in the first place!!

Deleted post
(+4)

I think you're wrong. Itch is a great site, especially for new developers. It's easy, especially compared to the alternatives. We're lucky to have it, and I think they deserve their share. It's very rare and unbelievably nice that they even allow us to choose the amount. 

(+1)

Yes! But they should charge extra for adult content. The charge is only on paid sums anyways. But I know taht certain individuals press report on content that they deem bad, so I claim that adult content will have more maintenance. Higher share is justfifyable.

As for payments, it is about payout to the devs. You can have payout in paypal if you get approvment of pp to sell adult content. I do not know requirement, but probably it includes being in a country that allows adult stuff.

Itch should reasearch and consider methods of real hardcore stuff payments. Or how do all those web caming people collect their money? They face similar situation as (adult) indie dev.

From user side, I can pay for adult stuff with paypal no problem. Many things are on patreon. It is not understandable, why I can pay to the same creator for the same content on patreon with paypal but not on itch. So how does patreon pay out to devs?

Deleted post
(+4)

They should have asked the devs then?

What an unprofessional and childish platform and admins.

(4 edits) (+2)

If you think that itch doesn`t deserve its part of pie go away mr. cleverman. Seriously delete your garbage and go away from itch. You are given free audience, you may earn money and only itch makes it easy for you. It is ok with 10% and more for sharing because itch does most work. You did shit project that noone wants to buy and itch searches for the community for you who buy your game even it is a rubbish. And you say they don`t deserv their part of pie? Mark you are tremendous weak mind. One thing: because of such a strong idiots we can lose the ground for selling our projects. Bravo!

Deleted post
Deleted post
(+1)

You can sell porn all over the place online. Not every site has to be a porn site. This is a welcome change imo.

(+15)

You have a lot of developers - - who actually make the stuff and try to get compensated for it - - saying in this thread that isn't the case. It's totally fair that you don't want to see mature content, so just turn that off in your settings. Problem solved for you.

(+2)

I am in the process of starting a petition, will post it once I have finished typing it out. 

I love this site, and I love our indie adult game developers, and I want to do what I can to help!!

Can someone share a copy of the email that they sent to everyone about this please?

(+1)

Petition is up!!

https://petitions.eko.org/petitions/stop-itch-io-from-punishing-adult-content-cr...

(+1)

I love the effort to get a petition going. Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of important nuance missing from the petition. Itch has not said "Adult content is not acceptable," nor has Itch "effectively ended the sale of adult games on their platform." Not all mature content developers have received this (as stated in this thread several times, including by the OP), and many continue to be able to sell their projects on Itch. 

That said, a LOT of adult developers are legitimately concerned because this is happening to some developers and the criteria used to select those developers have not been clearly explained to the community. Based on Leafo's posts on Discord, we understand it has something to do with risk to Itch and the developers' revenue sharing, but we don't have a lot of detail around what those "risks" are, nor do we know what percentage of revenue sharing would be acceptable.

It seems like this is a change in policy, from a lewd-games friendly platform that was willing to take a risk that developers would select 0% revenue sharing, to one that is going to require a certain level of revenue sharing to offset the risks and costs of hosting certain types of content. But the community didn't receive any notice about the change in policy or the measurements or standards it's based on, so we're a bit freaked out because we don't know what we need to do in order to remain eligible for the "collected by itch" payment method.

I think the claim that Itch is doing something they've explicitly said they're not doing (i.e., de-platforming all mature content) isn't going to be received well or leave them inclined to respond favorably to the petition.

JMO.

(2 edits) (+7)

The problem can't be the NSFW content, in that case just ban all that content and that's it.

The problem is not the rev share either, if you are looking to earn money, you force a minimum rev share to be placed instead of removing those people from your payment system.

The problem comes from violating the TOS of one of the companies that are used to pay/charge for the games. Here we can only guess what really happened, some mother who complained in paypal for what her son bought.  A letter from paypal to itch. A consultant who alerted itch to a possible danger, etc.

The point is that any paid game that uses paypal, strep, etc. and violates their TOS, jeopardizes the relationship between Itch and that company, which is why Itch is separating them from their pay-per-collection system.

Itch has always been characterized by being reactive and is made up of a very small staff for the amount of content it handles (it's easy to find games that violate copyrights, for example). Possibly it is very difficult to apply this rule to all the games that exist (or maybe they simply do not want to?), surely they will try to protect many developers, but unfortunately there are games and developers that it is impossible.

If it's a low-profile game, you're probably fine, even if you don't follow paypal's TOS.

Games that attract too much attention, regardless of their rev-share percentage, will be a danger and therefore, they will be removed from the payment system.

The games that are in between, will be more difficult to classify, but for example, if you share part of your profits (more than 10% for example) you imply that you support Itch and its community and that makes you gain sympathy from the staff and they may try to be more lenient.

On the contrary, if you earn hundreds of dollars a month, with a rev-share of 0%, you will be perceived as someone who is not interested in being part of the community and therefore, the staff will have no problem applying strictly. the rules.

In conclusion, if you want to play safe, you must abide by the rules of paypal and the other companies (that means no more NSFW games that use the Itch payment system), if you don't, it is possible (not 100% sure) that you will end up receiving the email if your game attracts attention.

DISCLAIM: I don't work or know the itch staff, this is just an analysis based on what I've read these days about it.

This is entirely a guess on my part, but I think it's a reasonable assumption.

From what we've seen, I think the payment companies started to put some pressure on Itch to stop supporting adult content. Itch then looked over their adult games market, saw how much money they were making from it, and decided that it wasn't worth trying to hold onto that money compared to the risk of losing the payment companies support for the rest of the website. 

Now perhaps some of this is due to revenue sharing issues, and that adult games proportionally didn't assign a good split on revenue... but I think it's most likely that they just don't get much revenue from them at all compared to the SFW stuff and the team didn't think they could fight Paypal or whoever was doing the pressuring on the issue for such little money. 

Some people have pointed out that Steam still does adult games stuff, but I counter that with the fact that steam is more than large enough to just laugh in those companies faces if they tried to pressure Valve on the matter. The amount of backlash those payments companies would recieve if Valve was set against them is pretty large, and not worht the risk for them.

Perhaps I'm wrong but this is my take.

(+1)

Well, for the time bieng, one cannot sell on itch, given certain circumstances, but that does not mean you cannot be on itch. You all realize this, do you not?

All those devs being aproved by Patreon and even Steam, you can still promote your other platforms, as you could before. You do realize, this is not usually possible on other platforms. While often frustrating in communication, Itch is a great place! Casually linking to your 7 other outlets, where the price might be less, try that on Steam. Itch even lets you integrate patreon in your profile; i hope they get some kind of affiliate linking bonus back from patreon.

So if you have paid only content, put a demo version here. Explain that you can only make sales via those other platforms for the time being. But please do not shit on itch for giving you free hosting. Banning adult content looks differnt.  

I do not approve of devs using 0% share. If I could see that devs are sharing none, I might even avoid paying them more, or at all, because it is not only the dev that I would want to pay more, it is the platform too. But if the dev is not giving revenue, my intended donation to itch would be 0.

Even with general policy of   free choseable revenue share, there can be exceptions or additional features . One would be mandatory minimum for adult stuff, as it creates more maintenance because of all those fundamentalists that report stuff that is against their morals. Or dealing differntly with overpayments. Or my favorite, add a bonus tip to itch button in payment, similar to concept of Humblebundle.

My concern is, that itch might drop certain features for real, like indie adult stuff, if it is no longer sustainable - and juding from comments here, many devs set sharing to 0 :-(

I had a look at how a hardcore site does it. They take about 50% and there is a minimum payout, like 100 bucks or more. Sounds familiar to that adult gaming site mentioned above.

Typical services used are ePayService, Paxum, Local Wires, Directa24, ACH, Direct Payments, EU Wire Transfer and International Wire Transfer.

So maybe it would be a possibility to offer an additional method that is fixed revenue sharing but has different payout method, for those that cannot use the existing ones. imho it is not helping to have devs  be here and just have them point to other site that does do take big cut. Better take big cut on itch, where people can overpay. There are people that refuse to pay patreon or steam out of principle.

(2 edits) (+10)

I believe that the biggest problem the devs are having is that this message being sent makes the change a fait accompli.  There's no warning, no indication as to something that could be changed to avoid this step - they go from being fine as far as they know, to being prevented from using itch as they have been for years, in some cases. Content that was completed over a year ago, if not longer, is no longer able to be sold.

If this is because the dev theoretically violated the TOS of one or more payment processors, then the devs involved would probably appreciate knowing exactly what said violation was. In the PayPal TOS, the only thing straight-out banned is obscene material. And the judgment on what is or isn't obscene tends to be subjective (as a Supreme Court Justice said regarding one case, "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it.")

For quite a while now, Patreon has not allowed content with incest on their site. That's frequently been dodged by changing relationships (mom becomes landlady, siblings become roommates, etc.). There's at least one VN I can think of on this site that makes little to no sense, unless you mentally translate these relationships back to what they "should" be. In many cases, such VNs are constructed so that a simple script can be added to change these relationships to incestuous ones. If that sort of thing is causing the problem, then similar solutions could be applied here; the dev would just need to know that.

By not providing such information (which might be provided to itch), the devs are left with a situation where they can't get around the problems - both because they aren't given a chance, and because they wouldn't know what the issue was.

While I realize itch is a small operation, they presumably use the services of lawyers (something most devs wouldn't think to do, even if they could afford to). The refusal to provide details may well be something that comes from lawyers. However, I would tend to think that knowing that a dev's content may violate the terms of service of itches payment processors, then telling devs to set themselves up to use those same payment processors for that same content is deeply unethical, and could be borderline illegal (it could be construed as providing bad legal advice - telling someone to do something you won't do because it might violate a contract). Note: I am not a lawyer, and I've never played one on TV, but I have seen almost every episode of Law & Order (et al.)

I'm not saying any of this is contrary to itch's stated policies, of represents a specific change to those policies. However, it does seem like itch policy may be being enforced more strictly. I believe it would greatly help the developers if itch could:

 - Explain what has caused them to terminate the dev's ability to use itch to handle individual payments and sales tax/VAT/whatever on same;

 - At a minimum, explain that there are explicit reasons why each dev has been picked out (even if for some reason itch can't divulge what those are);

 - If there is a common set of underlying issues that can affect devs, publicizing what those underlying issues are, so that devs who may not know they may be violating TOS get the heads-up, allowing them to try to resolve any such issues before they become an actual problem;

 - Consider signing up with a payment processor that doesn't put the same limitations on the content; and finally

 - Consider requiring a minimum share percentage, if only on content marked NSFW. Not a popular move I'm sure, but if devs with such content place a heavier burden on itch, that has to be covered somehow.

(1 edit) (+3)

Just go to GOG. Yes, there is a curation process. But they have accepted a lot of NSFW games and are even having a NSFW sale right now with hundreds of games! Jast USA and MangaGamer might also take some in as well as Fakku and others. 

(+1)

Honestly, I didn't even know GOG accepted NSFW games until this whole thing happened. I'll definitely be looking into it.

I would not get my hopes up for gog too much. They basically have the same hurdles as Steam, judging from the available adult games there (and this includes regional blocks since a while ago).  So better have a almost finished game and be a small company, I guess.

(+1)

I wouldn't say that. GOG has everything from the smaller devs to the million dollar Subverse on there. As long as you have a game with a demo on Steam, you're fine. Remember, there are a few in development adult games there like Under Contract. 

Moderator locked this topic