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Pinned ReplyAdmin (4 edits) (+8)

Will adult games be forced into “direct payments” instead of “collected by itch.io”?

We haven’t made any global policy changes, but we have notified some developers individually through our support system that they are no longer eligible for our Payouts system, and that in order to continue accepting payments they will have to switch to “Direct to you”.

We may continue to issue account updates as time goes on. The criteria for the account limitation are directly stated in the notice. I’m sharing a copy of that message here so you don’t have to depend other people’s posts to see what it says:

https://itch.io/static/payouts_unavailable.html

When a seller uses our Payouts system, we take on the responsibility and the associated risk for the content they distribute. We strive to offer our platform to as many independent creators as possible, but, since itch.io utilizes multiple third-party services to facilitate its payment services, we have to be careful about the risk we take on.

We understand this is difficult for some account owners, but as stated in the notice above, sometimes we need to balance the needs of our community at large over individual sellers to ensure we can continue to operate smoothly indefinitely.

Lastly, I wanted to address one thing specifically since it appears some people are confused:

Changing your revenue share setting will not affect the decision on your account At no time have we ever asked an account to set their revenue share to something specific. If other people are suggesting that then they concluded that on their own. When we evaluated our approach, revenue share was definitely something we considered in aggregate, but there is no minimum revenue share requirement for accounts to have access to our Payouts system. itch.io, just like your games, is “pay what you want.” Since the day we launched Open Revenue Sharing, we have encouraged developers to consider the value we provide to them when setting up their account. If there was a scenario in which we needed to enforce a minimum revenue share, we could do that, but that is not what we are doing here.

Deleted 1 year ago
(+39)

The decision is being made by evaluating the risk each individual dev is carrying, cool. But it still makes no sense that the devs that Steam has considered safe to work with, Patreon has considered safe to work with. somehow aren't up to Itch's standards? Makes zero sense. 


On the other hand, I propose an alternate point of view. By enforcing this in such an unprofessional way, Itch is no longer safe *for the developers*. There are no clear guidelines, literally anyone can be hit at any random moment. You're simply instilling fear into the devs you're working with and the only solution for the devs is to find someone else to work with. All I can say is: good luck

(1 edit) (+12)

Leafo, thank you for this and for responding here. I'm sure you're getting a lot of noise and grief (I saw some of it over on Discord) and it has to be a bit frustrating. 

From reading through your reply here, my understanding is that you feel Itch is being direct and clearly stating the criteria that are being considered ("... including nature of content, risk, disputes, and the resources required by our team to review payments associated with your account."). And you have emphatically stated that there is no minimum revenue sharing amount, but that it is one of the factors your team has looked at ("revenue share was definitely something we considered in aggregate, but there is no minimum revenue share requirement."). So, it is not a deciding factor, and it is not one that sounds like it can be quantifiable, but it is a factor. 

I recognize not all decisions can be reduced to a set of numbers, plugged into a formula, and give a predictable "Yes" or "No." That said, I hope you can understand that for a lot of us as creators, this also causes us a lot of anxiety as we didn't know there were any issues here for you/Itch or what we could do to help reduce the risk for everyone involved. I recognize you may not be able to go into much more detail on what those risks are (I'm sure some of it is sensitive if it involves communications with Itch's partners), but what I'm hearing from a lot of developers is fear and anxiety that they may be next, and wanting to know if there is anything they can do to help themselves and Itch reduce the attendant risks. 

If it's not about raising revenue sharing, is there anything developers can do to help reduce the risk for Itch (and, by extension, suspension of the "collected by Itch" payment method for developers)? 

Thank you.

P.S., I hope I got everything correct and didn't misrepresent anything. If so, it was not intentional.

(+7)

Please explain to me: 

How is it that I got my first email back on February 14th telling me to change to "Direct to you" and still kept the "collected by itch" option till 20th April? The only difference was that on February 15th I offered a 10% revenue share (used to be 0%). 

My mod mistakenly downgraded the revenue share to 0% again back on the 16th or 17th of April and then we got the email on the 20th of April that the decision is final.

If revenue share was never an issue, then how come you didn't change my payout option back in March after 30 days since the first email?

Admin (2 edits) (+8)

Why didn’t you update your account to be in compliance within the timeline we gave you? We very clearly communicated our requirements to you.

how come you didn’t change my payout option back in March after 30 days since the first email

We gave you more time. Since we knew more accounts were going to be affected we wanted to build out a system to enable the transition of accounts such the all pending earnings are delivered in the fairest way possible. Since it took time to get this tested and deployed, you got more time to sort out your account without us making any forced changes. Based on the info you’ve shared, you made no changes to your account and waited until we actually triggered the update for the final payout. So, despite the notice we sent you, you were able to utilize our Payouts system for a bit longer.

You changed your revenue share during this time period under your own volition; no one on our team asked you to make any changes or told you that making these changes would have any effect. The changes you made during this time had no bearing on the preparations we were making for rolling out reduced Payout availability. You were already notified that you were affected at this point.

Additionally, we noticed the confusion you had in a support message you sent to us more recently and even offered to retroactively change the revenue share setting on purchases that had already happened. This is something we typically never do, but we wanted to do right by you because we didn’t want you to feel like you were misled. For whatever reason, you’ve left this information out in your public posts.

I’m sorry for the somewhat stern response, but I feel like you’re trying to push some weird angle with regards to the revenue share, and at this point it’s misleading others. This we do not appreciate.

Once again, I’m sorry that you account was affected by this, but we are trying to make this transition for you as smooth and fair as possible for you. Hopefully you can at least see that.

(+19)

> Why didn’t you update your account to be in compliance within the timeline we gave you?

Because as stated in my first-ever response to you that I don't have Paypal or Stripe in my country and those are the only options you have for the "direct to you" payout method. I had 0 response from you after that. I sent you multiple emails and kept reminding you that the 30 days period is running out for me and there is nothing I can do. Yet, you only decided to respond after 2 months with your "final decision".

(+19)

Where was the communication that you were giving me more time instead of me having to send you several emails to figure out what could be the solution?

(+8)

What does "associated risk" mean when even devs with extremely low refund rates are also hit? I had 0.3% refunds, and haven't had any in the past 2 months. Average game on Steam has 12% refunds.

(+19)

> We haven’t made any global policy changes
> Please read out partners' TOS

> TOS: Adult content isn't allowed


The only way I can read it is that NSFW was never supposed to be monetized through Itch's system. So basically it does indeed affect every single NSFW dev

(+5)

Thanks leafo for replying about this. We appreciate everything you're doing, and I understand how you want to protect your platform. 

However this has got a lot of adult devs worried (myself included) and would like to know what the decision to force some adult devs into 'direct payments' is based on? 

You mention "risk", so there must be some threshold. Is this only affecting the developers of really taboo content? 

Is it that "taboo" content with 0% rev share is bad, but 'vanilla' adult or LGBT content with 30% rev share might be ok? 

(+16)

I have two big problems with this:

  • Exactly no one who buys adult content wants to use "direct pay".  You're basically giving your credit card number to a stranger at that point, and that completely eliminates any safety associated with buying content through a site like itch.io.
  • You aren't just hurting developers.  You're also hurting large numbers of users who have already paid for content from those developers, and now have no way to get future updates for the software that they have paid for.

There are plenty of ways for a company with as high a sales volume as Itch to deal with adult content.  Use a separate merchant account through a bank that understands what it is being used for, is aware of the high chargeback rate, and charges higher fees accordingly to make up for that.  Then require that adult content publishers have a certain threshold of revenue sharing to compensate for the higher payment processing costs.  Nobody would fault you for that sort of decision.  It is simply part of the cost of doing business.

Unfortunately, there are *no* realistic ways for individual developers to deal with it, because companies like Stripe and Paypal have blanket bans on adult content, so all the services that are available to an average consumers are unusable, and I can pretty much guarantee that nobody, and I mean nobody in that space has the sort of industry clout or the sales volume to be worth the hassle for any bank that provides merchant accounts, much less the money and expertise to set up their own PCI-compliant billing service.  And small companies in this space who have tried to do so in the past have usually found themselves quickly shut down.

And your customers, of course, are caught in the middle.

Let me be a little more clear here, in case that second point above wasn't clear enough.  What you're doing amounts to large-scale fraud against users who have bought content through your platform.  And given the egregiousness of the way this was handled, the lack of any warning to customers, the huge number of people effectively defrauded by your company, and the completely 100% adhesive nature of your terms of service,  I can pretty much guarantee that that the class action waiver that I just noticed in your terms of service won't be worth the cost of the paper that you didn't print it on.  If this ends up in court, this decision will be seen as a very expensive mistake.

So the way I figure it, you have two options: refund every penny you have charged anyone for banned content without taking that money away from developers, and eat those costs as a cost of choosing to leave an entire industry, or figure out a way to solve this problem of your own creation in a way that doesn't cause financial harm to both developers and end users en masse.

And it would be wise to make a commitment to do one or the other before things go too far and you can no longer take it back, and before your former customers start issuing so many chargebacks that it causes your merchant account provider to shut you down entirely, making your previous problems seem like a stubbed toe by comparison.  Because that's pretty much the only way that this will realistically end unless you find a way to fix it.

Deleted 1 year ago