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Generative AI Disclosure tagging

A topic by leafo created Nov 20, 2024 Views: 41,773 Replies: 202
Viewing posts 41 to 55 of 55 · Previous page · First page
(+5)

To be honest, given the amount of heat the topic of AI usage tends to generate, I plan to always mark my games as AI regardless of actual AI usage, just to avoid those pitfalls.
I think this is a good strategy for most developers, since people who care deeply about the 'AI purity' will find a flaw anyways (just about any graphical editor more powerful than MS Paint has some AI elements for example). So ultimately the 'AI-pure' niche will become self-contained, while the rest of us will have our freedom outside of it, and everybody will live happily thereafter :)

(+6)

https://automaton-media.com/en/news/level-5-ceo-says-games-are-now-being-made-80...

Developers of Prof. Layton:

"Currently, around 80~90% of codes are written by AI and then fixed up and finalized by human programmers. In other words, it means that right now, around 80~90% of games are made by AI."


I'm not saying that codebases centered around AI shouldn't be tagged as such, but don't you think it's ridiculous that using AI to debug your code, or using it to help with creating heavy-duty physics aspects of your game automatically lumps it in with the run-of-the-mill ones with AI-generated visuals etc? 

I think killing the nuance is inevitably going to lead to people lying about usage of AI within their development, just like many other developers have said in this thread. But hey, that's just the reality I'm seeing.

(1 edit) (+4)

LLMs are now essential tools in development — they’ve effectively replaced traditional search.

I built my game from the ground up. I chose the tech stack myself, created all the UI components from scratch, and optimized everything for performance. My UI runs faster than most modern React apps — because I’ve been building software for over 20 years and witnessed the evolution of web technologies firsthand.

This is not a game cobbled together from boilerplate or template code. I made it myself. Yes, I used LLMs — every day, and a lot. Just like I use Google. Just like I read books. Just like I talk to real people to learn and improve.

The current “AI-generated code” category is misleading. It needs to be updated. Don’t devalue human effort just because modern tools are part of the process. My game is 99% human-made.

If that tag is required, maybe also add tags like “No Google”, “No Stack Overflow”, or “No Learning” — because that’s the level of gatekeeping it implies.

I wrote this reply myself, but used an LLM to help refine the text. These are still my thoughts — I just made them more readable. I also wrote the game’s documentation this way.

Does that really make my game “AI-generated”?

(+7)

I assure you that many, many games are developed without any use of LLMs at all. That means they're not "essential." 

The current tag is "AI-Generated Content." It sounds like you have some and therefore couldn't tag your content with "No AI." However, the new tag is only required for assets - not for ttrpgs or video games.

The way Itch implements AI disclosure is not quite satisfactorial. I think the textual disclosure as seen on Steam to be better. Also, the way these "tags" are shown, or rather not shown makes it feel like a hack. Also, some devs select those tags manually, adding to confusion of players and other devs. Not many people read this thread and understand how this really works. Maybe 5000 users read this thread. Probably less.

Itch currently has a yes or no and that might be ok for assets, but not for games. Customers look for different qualities in games and assets. Being AI free can be a vital quality for assets, so yes/no makes sense.

But players will have other standards for games. If they care for AI, it will be most likey be for the "content". To my understanding of language, content is what is shown, and not the method how it is shown. So, code is not content. It might be in some cases, but not generally. Using state of the art coding technologies and being lumped togher with ai slop creators is not really good for morale of developers. Not answering the AI disclosure might be prudent, but it is not elegant.

(+2)

You don’t even realize why what you’ve done is wrong, and that’s sad. You’ve fed your entire creative process into a machine. There is a huge and fundamental difference between the two processes you described.

Google, stack overflow, and books… Reading something made by humans, learning from it, internalizing it, and making decisions based on your experiences. That’s an actual creative experience.

You said you “used LLMs every day and a lot.” That’s no longer your process. You simply outsourced your thinking to a machine. You asked your magic box god to help tell you what to think and what to do. A machine that was created by harvesting the blood and sweat of thousands of people who did actual work. And insatiable monster that has devoured everything into itself and regurgitates to you based on a sophisticated prediction algorithm what it thinks you need. But the process, the ethics, the morality, the environment, none of that matters because hey, it’s convenient right?

“These are still my thoughts?” No. They aren’t. And you don’t even realize it.

(+2)

I wonder how you perceive photography. If you compare the creative process to create a picture between taking a photo and painting a canvas, there are some striking similarities. The photographer "just presses a button". Yet photography is an established art.

Sure, there is slop made with AI, because it is easy. Just as there is slop made with photograhy apparatus. Or slop made with cookie cutter templates on a premade game engine. Creating yet another pixel art rpg with a story seen so often there are tropes about it. There are even engines that advertise as needing no coding knowledge.

your entire creative process

You act like using AI helpers is like asking the machine: hey google, make a video game and put my name under it. Just like a photographer just pushes the button and "created" a picture. "No" creativity. If it is enough for the photographer to decide what's in the picture, why is it not enough for the AI operator to decide what's in the image? That's why I am asking how you perceive photography. What's the difference for you. Unless of course you have a similar opinion about the creativity of taking photos.

And what do you think about people using a magic box to have their game do things? Speaking of game engines. Someone using that engine relies on the blood and sweat of the people that programmed the actual routines to move pixels around. It's standing on the shoulders of giants.

What do you think about a movie director or an orchestra conductor? Are they "creative"? It's the actors that act, the musicians that play. The instrument builders built the instruments and the notes composed by a componist. The movie script was written by someone else, and the cutter puts it all together. Is the creativity of conductor and director outsourced?

Anyway, I suggest you read the post you replied to again, what was actually done with the llms. Googling an example from stackoverflow and adapting it to your needs is not really much different from asking chatgpt to generate a code snippet. Only, the chatgpt snippet might have bugs in it that are not obvious. In both cases, the coder did not spend days learning how that code fragment would be done from sratch. It is standing on the shoulders of giants, relying on previously done work. Googling it, is a huge improvement from digging through examples in written books. Summarizing it with the help of a llm is a further advancement, but with the risk of it being very wrong.

And refining text with llm is a glorified spell checker. I hope you do not use those when you write emails or texts. The knowledge in that spell checking relies on previous works of other people. You would be outsourcing your language skills.

Visual art is a bit different, as you do not need an image that is functional, as you would need a functional code snippet. That's probably why ai images look so bland. They fulfill the functionality requested. For code this is enough. So much enough, that one uses libraries full of functions and even whole game engines that do not even need coding knowledge anymore.

You can be against the usage of AI for all sorts of reasons. And we all should be, for things like the slop created with it. But things like spell checking and coding assistance, in terms of creativity, are state of the art methods, of what programmers are doing for as long as there has been programming. Reuse, rehash, copy, paste, do calls to things other people wrote.

(+1)

"You act like using AI helpers is like asking the machine: hey google, make a video game and put my name under it." 

That is exactly what vibe coding is for

(+1)

The photographer “just presses a button”.

Spoken like someone who has no idea about what goes into photography.

I am not sure how your statement is meant. Also, you quoted me, but replied to someone else.

I hope you do know what the " mean. Because you answered like you do not.

(+1)

Spoken like someone who’s terminally online on Itch, lolulolulolu

(+3)

It might be good to integrate a small description field to basically give people a way to honestly describe their AI use. There is a difference between "I used AI for absolutely everything" and "Out of curiosity, I used AI to create 3 experimental textures and among my 600 self generated textures, I also used 3 AI generated textures".

(+2)

This is not going to age well.  in a few years AI will be so ubiquitous there will be no way to participate in the development pipeline with out it. Just embrace it as another tool in your toolbox and exploit it's power. If a game looks and plays like garbage then it will not succeed, same as it ever was.

For now, keep using the AI use disclosure according to the site’s TOS.

(+2)

I suspect it's the opposite. In a few years, LLM and image-based AI-generated content will collapse because it's all funded by smoke and mirrors; there's no actual profit plan, especially since the content made by AI isn't protected by copyright. 

(How many studios will release a movie that's in the public domain the moment it hits the screen? How many game devs want their logos and characters to be free for anyone to copy?) 

We're seeing a huge amount of it right now because there are lots of free and low-cost AI generators available, but when the venture capitalist firms that were chasing NFTs realize that the general public isn't going to pay as much for AI generation than they do for human-made goods, and in many cases will refuse to pay for them at all, the bubble will burst and all the public AI tools will vanish.

There'll still be plenty of self-hosted LLMs and art generators, but without the power of Google or Microsoft's servers behind them, they won't have anything like the same capacity.

(+1)

Case in point: The Open Slopware page claims that several popular game engines have started to include LLM-generated code. Unless I missed something, I doubt that it'll be easy for new games or games receiving updates to remain AI-free for long.

  • Games made with Godot include a copy of the Godot engine. Versions of Godot newer than 4.3-stable include LLM-generated code.
  • Games made with Ren'Py (or any other engine written in Python) and packaged with PyInstaller include a copy of the CPython interpreter. Versions of CPython newer than 3.14.0a4 include LLM-generated code.

A post by asie brought this to my attention.

The questions asks about content and about code. 

An engine is neither.

So a plausible interpretation would be, it's about anything that is an asset and anything that is game logic.

Engines can be tagged separately in the meta info.

The policy says "We ask that you accurately tag your project if it contains materials produced by generative AI by utilizing the AI Disclosure section on your project’s edit page.".

Why would that not apply to code bundled with your project?

Because you could unbundle it and have the user get the runtime distribution files for the engine, library or whatever dependencies it has.

Look here for an explanation https://www.rpgmakerweb.com/run-time-package

More commonly known and seen might be the requirement for your system to install Visual C++ Redistributeables, if you install certain games.

What about browser games? If it only runs in Chrome, it will make use of ai code. If you bundle your game with Chrome, your project's files will have ai code. But would anyone consider the project itself to be in any way ai made?

Whether or not anyone would consider it AI made just speaks to a disconnect between itch's stated rules and people's actual perception. It's poorly written policy.

That the policy and implementation could be better, goes without saying. I prefer the disclosure as seen on Steam. It is details in text. 

But even there, I have doubts that you would see a disclosure about how the engine used would have some ai code in it. As I said, Chrome contains ai code. Every web game that only runs bug free on Chrome, or is even bundled with a Chromium, would fall under the code ai section, if you would apply the ai question transitive.

This is not the intent of the ai disclosure. Leafo made a statement about this somewhere here. The opinion was, you should only tag a dependency that has ai in it, if you chose that dependency because it has ai in it. It follows, if you merely chose that dependency, because that library is a common library, or happens to be your game engine, or bundled browser, that the disclosure questions do not apply. It's about the things put into the game, not the things necessary to run the game.

Sorry that I'm giga late to the discussion - I don't visit Itch often. However, I was just searching up some games, and I'm having difficulty finding a way to tell if games have been correctly tagged as being AI or not (is there a way to tell from a store page?), and how to report them if not. I included the "No AI" tag in my searches and I'm still getting some results that are clearly using AI art.

(+1)
how to report them if not.

Do not bother. The disclosure feature is only mandatory for assets. It says so in the OP. The plan is to delist all assets that have not filled out the disclosure. I have no clue how long that grace period is supposed to be. There are still about 20k assets without that info. After that grace period, you would just browse with the no-ai tag to avoid ai. But that's assets.

is there a way to tell from a store page

Maybe one day. When that grace period is over, they might complete the feature. It is rather crude to introduce a tag that is not a tag, but can be searched with the tag system - and is not even visible on the page. All the tags you see regarding ai, are manual tags. You cannot see the disclosure tags in the info box.

The only way to check, is to combine the tags of the game with one of the ai tags and see, if it appears.

Only about 20% of the games on Itch have filled out the disclosure question.

In my opinion those tags are not all that helpful for games. I would prefer an extensive and visible disclosure as is seen on Steam. If you just browse with ai-generated, you do not know, how ai was used. People that want to avoid ai, usually want to avoid ai "art". Sure, there are some purists that want to avoid all things that have anything to do with ai. While browsing on a browser that has ai assisted code in it, that would be marked as ai-generated on Itch. Speaking of, the Itch app is chromium based, is it not. So the Itch app itself would be marked as ai-generated.

Go to the bottom of the project page and select the “Report” link. Choose the option that you feel best fits, note that the page showed up under the “No AI” tag, and send.

Hello! I'm planning to release a version of my game with AI-generated graphics. However, I'm going to release it as a separate version so players can choose. What should I do in this case?

Should I mark the entire game as AI-generated, or should I just issue a warning in the corresponding version?

If you release a new project, that would not even be a question. Just answer the disclosure questions on  the projects accordingly.

If you "release" a bonus version on your existing project, you could go either way. Answer the disclosure question for your actual project and explain what the bonus version is. Or answer the disclosure question for the whole project page including all alternative/bonus versions.

(+1)

So. The disclosure question answers finally show up in the info box. And it links to the real filters, it seems. 

https://itch.io/games/ai-assisted 

https://itch.io/games/ai-code  

https://itch.io/games/ai-audio 

https://itch.io/games/ai-graphics

About 15k assets still not answered the question, so the grace period is not over, it seems.

The area seems to be named Content, if no ai was used (but still talks about ai) or AI Disclosure, if there was.

Seeing the info that no ai was used in all game info boxes, just because they did not use it, is odd. It is a bit like seeing a non mature warning on a non mature game. It should be the expected way, so only give information, if there is information to give, like the rest of the things in the more information box. There is also not information about how a game did not use Unity for example. Only if it did.

Steam does it like that. They will only display info about ai, if ai was used. They will not advertise on a game page, that no ai was used.

I think the real issue or non issue is, what will people that do not read the message board (most of them), think about the new information there. Will they understand what it means. Will they be annoyed by the constant reminder that games did not use ai and see it as an advertisement for the no-ai tag. Things like that.

Admin (1 edit) (+1)

Seeing the info that no ai was used in all game info boxes, just because they did not use it, is odd. It is a bit like seeing a non mature warning on a non mature game. It should be the expected way, so only give information, if there is information to give, like the rest of the things in the more information box. There is also not information about how a game did not use Unity for example. Only if it did.

I agree with you, I deliberated on the wording and I may remove it. The links in the game info panel do lead back to classification pages though, so I would like to make it easy for people to discover that itch.io has a No AI section, since I feel like people are seeking out stuff like given the current discourse around gen AI content.

(1 edit)

If the goal is to unobtrusively give users the option to filter against or for ai, maybe remove the obsolete filter "type" and use the space to have the ai content filter visible, instead of only showing it, when one of the filters is selected.

A few thoughts about how things are currently.

The "ai-assisted" filter changes the browse section on the left side. The same way that clicking "released" does. A previously hidden filter option appears, where you can change released, in development and so on. For ai you can switch between the positive filters of code, text, audio, graphics and assisted - and the no-ai tag is linked.

While the release status filters are mutual exclusive, the ai filters are not. But the filter options switch between them.

It is unclear what "assisted" would mean. I know only because I read this topic and tried what it does. It is mapped to the ai-generated tag, so it means having at least one of the other ai filters. But do casual users understand what "ai assisted" means in the context of the filter or of the info box? Maybe I have a different perspective, since English is not my native language. But I would say, no, it is very unclear. At closest it would mean basically the same as the ai-code filter. Assisted game making. But that's not what it means. It means that one or more of the other options is true. Assets, code, any combination. That's not what assistance is.

It should read something to the effect of "any of the ai categories". And in the more information box, it is redundant and ads to confusion. "So the game does not only use ai images, it also was made by assistance of ai..."

The ai filter on the left side also contains the no-ai tag, but that does not map to a filter, just the virtual tag that is generated by the ai disclosure question.

The ai filter options on the left side do not appear, when using the no-ai tag, which matters little. But it also does not appear when using the ai-generated virtual tag.

About 1.1. million games did not fill out the ai disclosure question. Will casual users understand that an empty section on the info box means just that? Is that maybe even the intended behaviour, or what should be intended. Steam has no ai filter, as they have no tag or feature for it. But as far as I know they do have mandatory disclosure questions that are more elaborate than yes/no, and the answers to that are listed in game descriptions to games that do contain ai generated assets, and possible code.

To my interpretation of quality guidelines, it was always meant for developers to mention ai usage for assets on games, maybe except for code, even before the ai disclosure question.

Since I did read this thread I do know what it means if I see a no-ai tag in a game's tag list. But tags that are not tags but still in the tag list are confusing. And doubly confusing, since some developers do use them as regular tags. Just like some use Unity as a tag.

The no-ai and the ai-generated tag appear in the suggested tag drop down box and appear when typing ai. But neither will activate the ai filter on the left side of browse.

AI Assistance is really unclear as a name for a filter section, if you would show it regularly, like platform and the likes. Assistance? Like an input method? Who assists whom, with what? It's generative ai usage. Or something like that. ai generated content. Ai content. If you say "assistance" I am gonna think "installation wizard"

And the type filter is really outdated and could be removed to gain space for a permantent new filter, if need be. Html5 is included in web under platform. And there are games that have both on the same page, but the combination of html5 and downloadable has 0 games.

There is a fundamental question about what people expect from a no-ai filter/tag and what Itch can deliver. The tag can currently only show games that actually have answered the ai disclosure. Only about 40k games have answered with a yes. So using the no-ai tag will not simply exclude those 40k games, but it will exclude 1.14 million games. The 40k games that definitly have ai, and the 1.1 million games that have not answered. This might be what some hardcore ai avoiders would want. But will it be what the average user expects.

The solution would be to have two different "no-ai" filters. One that only shows games that have answered with a no to the question and one that only excludes games that have answered with a yes.

(+2)

I’ve been enjoying the new field on project pages the past few days. I open the details box on nearly every page I visit— would be nice if we could select to have that open by default, by the way— and the link on no-ai projects is appreciated. That link is reassuring, because it means more to me than the AI-generated links do.

Without the no-ai link, old pages where the box wasn’t selected would be indistinguishable from projects where the No button was selected. We’d have to guess by the date of the last update. I don’t know or remember when the box was added for developers. Then there also wouldn’t be an easy link to see more no-ai projects.

It would feel like AI-using projects would be promoted— favored by itch.io— when developer- or team-made-only projects aren’t.

The AI stuff is supposed to be noted in the project descriptions, anyway. It often isn’t. When it’s there, the link under details is redundant to me. When there’s no mention in the description, I’m looking for the no-ai tag in details.

(1 edit)

For me, as a game maker, it is very important to see at a glance if a game asset is AI-free.

If the "No AI" marker (less of a warning and more a mark of quality) would be removed, I couldn't be certain if a product is AI-free or if the author just hasn't answered the AI disclosure question (esp. on older assets where the disclosure is not yet mandatory).

Since I refuse to use assets in my games unless I have confirmation that they are AI-free, removing this information would mean I couldn't buy assets on itch.io with the same confidence as I do now.

When browsing games, where disclosure is optional, positive confirmation that a game is AI-free is also important so I know that a game is worth my time.

As it is right now, the information does exactly what it is supposed to do.

Hello ! Please tell if I need to check the checkbox about AI been used, if i used it only for Cover image

Why would you go to the trouble of creating an AI-free game and then ruin it with an AI cover image?

I work on Cover image myself, but it is too time consuming for me, I am not an experienced , while working on cover, I just want to put it to have my game released

Just use a screen shot. It’ll accurately represent your game, and it’ll probably look better than AI slop too.

Thank you so much !

The ai disclosure question asks about the project. But what is part of the project and what is not. Does the description count too?

I would say, for basically a yes/no tagging question like this, only things that are in the project files count. The things you play or download. A complex ai disclosure statement might include information about things like promotional material like cover images.

That being said, it's unwise to have an ai image represent a non-ai game. Same for using a heavily ai written game description.

Thank you for answer

(+3)

Huge numbers of developers are now using AI to generate code, help debug, fix issues, run tests and so on, so this category will quickly become the largest. That is if coders are truly honest (I suspect many will not be because of the stigma you are attaching to their games, maybe one of the reasons itchio is dying?). Even after coding for 30+ years in at least 6 different languages, having worked on hundreds of games / engines across many consoles / devices, many large scale commercial products I am now using Codex. I have no choice if I am to compete, because my peers sure as hell are using it so why would one handicap themselves? If you want to compete in the "world of work" then you will be left with no choice but to use AI at some point. Its a sad state of affairs but we do what we can with what we have.

(+2)

Let's take you back to the old days of the apple store. You had several gems like Plants VS Zombies, bejeweled, fruit ninja, etc. These were not made with AI.

Now the apple store is, by and large, full of slop. I haven't used it in months granted solely because of that. There's way too many things placed on it in a sheer attempt to make a buck and people use AI to try to chase the next big algorithm.


If you want to state that you need to use AI, you can. By all means, you're still allowed to.

But a lot of people develop and create things with time and patience. It's not even just the copyright issues of AI that makes people irritated.

It's the fact that the majority of AI work is half-assed slop shot out in an attempt to make a quick buck and bury games that people put literal years of effort in.

(1 edit)

Oh I agree with your comment, you know how people are now about AI? Well I was the same about the easy mode game editing systems such as Unity / Unreal and so on. That said, that did not ruin the app stores, greed and stupidity ruined the app stores. When the only way to compete was to make your game free and then attempt to screw money out of people with in app purchases and ads. The whole thing has been a race to the bottom benefiting only those with large amounts of cash that can push the games into visibility. Those are the ones that the likes of Apple and Google will bend over backwards to help. AI is just an additional layer of mess on top of an already massively broken system. That there is where I give up, I no longer care about how a game is made, my craft has been demolished and made easier and easier for millions of laymen already, so what's wrong with a few million more?
The issue with AI is that it has been unfairly demonised, we di not demonise any of the previous tools that allowed the app stores to be filled with junk. Don't get me wrong, it will destroy my trade but the powers that be want it so they WILL have it. It will demolish my sector and many associated sectors. But there is a short time window right now (and maybe for next 5 years) where you can utilise AI to make something of your ideas. Why would I with insane amounts of knowledge waste my time working at my typing speed when I can get an AI to analyse my code base, adopt my style and do what I would have done but in 1/10th the time? (very heavily directed by myself of course). AI is not able to just take a comment such as "recreate me Minecraft" and actually do that, maybe in 5 years but not now. For those of using AI correctly, its not SLOP, its enhanced our existing skillset. Sure some people will create slop but most of us professional developers will not use it that way.
Working on games for years makes zero difference by the way (if you don't see it as a hobby then stop doing it), you either have to be very lucky and find a nice niche such as Stardew (these are disappearing daily) or you need big publisher backing which means giving a lot of your money to someone else. There is no other way anymore. Those days of Flappy Bird are gone and never to return.
I will add that I am coming at this more from a professional development point of view where this is my livelihood, if a pro dev does not use AI now he / she will fall to the bottom and lose jobs quicker than the rest as AI pushes people out. AI allows me to do the job of 5 coders, why would someone hire someone who would not use that efficiency boost? I'm hoping governments restrict AI use but they won't, too much money to be made and at the end of the day they care far more for money than they do people.

(+2)

If you use Visual Studio, you need to turn off IntelliCode tab complete if you want to tag your game as having no AI use

Question - if you're using AI to write code that procedurally generates graphics in the game, would that fall under 'AI Generated Graphics' or 'AI Generated Code'?

Might seem silly but I think there's a clear distinction between 'I used Nano Banana to make all my game assets, trained on human art' and 'I used Claude Code to write a routine that dynamically generates a tentacle from polygons, trained on human code'. To me the source of the training data is the largest ethical quandary for AI use - the slow wheels of the legal system will resolve that one way or another - but I don't see nearly as many ethical problems with using it to help with straight code development given the history and nature of code use and sharing vs the personal expression involved in development of art.

Curious to see what other people's takes are.

(1 edit)

That's an interesting question. I feel like it would have to be considered both.

EDIT: My reasoning is that if you were to pre-render graphics generated from AI code, then you wouldn't be shipping any AI generated code from that use, but it feels undeniable that AI generation is going on, so it would make sense to call it AI graphics.

(+1)

If you would create images by a thing that is not a so called generative ai system, those images are not gen ai made. 

If the thing contains ai code, is not relevant for this question. Neither is it asked, if the compiler used to create the executeable did contain any ai code. Or if the operating system used to develop the game did contain any ai code.

You were also not asked, if you developed the idea of the game by talking to an ai system and getting inspiration. Or if you used a gen ai system to develop play test scenarios. 

Some viewpoints about ai remind me of vegans. Like a vegan going to a restaurant and ordering vegan food. But also requireing the waiter and cook to be vegans, the menu not be bound in leather and the candle on the table not be bees wax.

so it would make sense to call it AI graphics

Reverse the question and see if you would still feel so. Would a player seeking games with gen ai graphics aprove of the gen ai graphics tag?

If you promise ducks in a game, there better be some quacking and walking like a duck in the game.

It’s definitely AI Generated Code.

If it’s also AI generated art is a more complex issue, and depends on what the code is actually doing and how many of the creative decisions were left up to the AI. Do you understand the code? Did you pick or design the algorithms? Could you have coded it from scratch, given the time and effort? Would it have produced the same results if you did code it from scratch? If your answer to all these questions is “yes”, then it’s not AI generated art. I’ll just boycott it for containing AI generated code instead.

And if you would use an ocr to extract ai made code from an image and have it run, would that count as not having ai code in the files? The image is an image and not code, after all.

But your example is rather clear. Your assets are not the output of generative ai. They are the output of procedural ai.

Let's rephrase it. What if you have a pure human coded local ai system. You ship the system and generate ai images on the fly. Does the game contain the output of generative ai? Yes. Does your project contain output of generative ai? No.

There are games that can ask an online ai servcie for answers. How about them? I remember experimental games, where they would control an npc by an ai system. The game surely makes use of output of generative ai. But what type is it? Is it an asset? No. Is it code? No.

On a side note, the disclosure also does not ask, if the compiler contains any ai. But the executeable would have been literally created by a thing that has gen ai code in it.

For your point about how accepted ai is in a field, that does not really matter. Actually, any legal disputes would hit ai code even harder. Remember all that patent problems and other things certain software is burdened with? And a "copy" is much more clearer in text form. Copying a style and and ideas by machine learning might be ethically questionable, but not legally.

I wonder if there should be a fifth category. It seems it is possible to not answer the mandatory question of which category of gen ai was used. Leaving us with games that have the "ai assisted" tag, but none of the others.

Since this is not positively filterable, this is meaningless and juding by the wording, it seems like a bug. And because the filter is called ai assisted, it might be rather confusing for users.

On the other hand, if other ai usage should be possible to answer, the questionaire should make this option clear. But since all this is asset centric, I have yet to come up with a meaningful category that is not covered by the existing.

Playtesting came to mind. But this is not covered at all. As an analogy, movies usually get shown to a test audience. And the movie might be modified based on the reactions. But that test audience did not create any part of the movie. Beta testers of a game might get thanked, but if one of the beta testes was an ai system, would that somehow make the game having gen ai content? 

If we forget about science fiction tech like simulated smell, there is only visual, audio and logic. There might be haptic, but you can boil that down to instructions which would be logic again. And logic is divided into narrative and code.

There are two possible interpretations of “other”: generative AI output that does not fit in the categories (graphics, audio, text, code), and non-generative AI use. They are different. They must be treated differently.

Puzzle design and level design are not in any of the given categories unless you stretch the categories to the point of meaninglessness. Ask an AI to generate a Sokoban level for you. If you call the result graphics, you’ve stretched the definition of graphics to also include text. (After all, it’s all pixels on the screen.) If you call the result code, you’ve stretched the definition of code to include graphics, audio, and text. (After all, it’s all encoded information that the computer uses to produce some sort of output.) If you call the result text, then the entire game is text (which is how literary theory uses the term “text”). If you call it audio, then you’re just being an obnoxious and have abandoned all definitions.

Non-generative use of AI is something entirely different. It’s finding (not fixing) bugs with AI. It’s using an AI-powered search engine to look up information. It’s letting AI gamble on the stock market to fund your game. And yes, it’s letting using an AI to test your game.

Using non-generative AI is practically unavoidable and has little to do with the actual content of the game. It’s way to broad of a category to require disclosure. Disclosing specific, clearly defined subsets of this broad category may be useful, but Itch defines no such subsets, and they would have to be disclosed separately from generative AI.

Generative AI output that does not fit into the four categories, on the other hand, is common and should definitely be disclosed.

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Generative AI output that does not fit into the four categories, on the other hand, is common and should definitely be disclosed.

Care to name a few examples. If it is common, there should be plenty of examples. And only because something does not fit exactly in 1 of those 4 categories, does not mean that there is need for a 5th. You can just select both or the most fitting.

Also, if it is the output of a gen ai, but does not end up in the game, why tag it? There is no transitive quality asked here. To put forth an analogy: the cook of vegan food does not need to be a vegan, for the meal to be vegan.

About the puzzle. In case of a sokoban level generated with generative ai, it is code. It is literally a set of instructions. A level is basically code in an unnamed programming language that tells the game, how a level should look.

One might argue, that it is also narrative (dialogue) as well, if you think about puzzles as riddles. Riddles are a form of narrative, but their puzzle nature is more wordy. You could even argue it to be graphics, if you actually used the visual representation of sokoban levels to train an ai and produce more of such things. And if you used an essay generator or a code generator would answer the detail, if you would select text or code. But strictly, a level of any video game can always be considered code.

If the thing carries meaning, it is dialogue/text/story or code or a mix of those. If it is for looks, it is graphics, if it can be heard, it is sound.

(Yes, yes, images and sound carry also meaning. I meant abstract things that only bring meaning into the game. Like the game play, balancing, item stats and so on.)

If it is neither of those things, I am not sure, if you can call it an asset or a thing that is actually in the game.

I wondered about more categories a few times. But if there is one, it probably is not something common or intuitively understandable. And if there is, it probably can be seen as some equivalent of "code".

In case of a sokoban level generated with generative ai, it is code. It is literally a set of instructions.

There is a stronger argument for png files being code and you know it, so stop pretending otherwise.

For the less technically inclined, this is what a Sokoban level looks like:

#####
#@$.#
#####

Note how it’s literally just plain data. There are graphical Sokoban implementations that replace these text characters with graphics, but there are also text-based Sokoban implementation which use exactly these characters to represent the game. On a spectrum from code and data, this at the absolute far end of non-code data. If this plain data is code, then logically all plain data must be code, which makes the distinction of code and not-code meaningless in a game.

A png file, on the other hand, uses data compression. A compressed data file basically consists of a set of instructions for reconstructing the uncompressed data. On a spectrum from code to data, this is still comfortably on the data end of the spectrum, but not quite at the extreme end.

There is a stronger argument for png files being code and you know it, so stop pretending otherwise.

A video game level is always programming code. It literally is. Just not in the programming language you are familiar with.

A level for a game is a set of instructions. Not unlike a punch card for a mechnical piano.

It is a primitive type of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-specific_language 

So, why is the set of instructions in a png or jpg not a programming code? Because we encoded an existing image into that format. The set of instructions is only needed to decompress the image. What was the existing thing we encoded in case of a level? It was an idea, a puzzle, the game level's logic. And what do we call the thing that makes the game tick? Code.

On a spectrum from code and data, this at the absolute far end of non-code data.

You seem to understand that data and code is the same. Good. We just treat it differently in modern computers and impose a barrier on operating system level, if possible. It starts to get interesting, as soon as your game loads a file and starts interpreting that (plain) data. Then this data is literally code. No matter how human readable or "plain" it is.

And if you interpret data, it is not on the far end of non-code data, it is on the code site. You could hard code the instructions into the code. Grossly simplified, we did this: 1a + 2a + 3a = a (1 + 2 + 3). a is the code that is left and you saved 1, 2 and 3 as data to be interpreted later. Which also gives you easy ability to later add 4 and 5.

If this plain data is code, then logically all plain data must be code, 

That's a formal fallacy.

The difference between data and code is intention and word definition. We would call the literal programming card of a mechnical piano "code". But we would call the same music played as a wav file "data". We would call a programmed vector graphic procedural and code. But we would call a screenshot of such a thing an image and data.

And on a tagging mechanism like ai disclosure, if you procedurally create things like sound and visuals, but made the code for this with ai, you better explain this nuance in the description or tag all three, instead of only code.

which makes the distinction of code and not-code meaningless in a game.

That's not game specific. You cannot tell if something is code, just by having it compiled into an exe. And you cannot tell if something is data, just because you could read it with a text editor and is a file.

For some recurring things we established, that it is to be called data or non-code. Like image files. And there is an analog explanation for this. We just store the digitial representation of it. We can do the same for story and dialogue, or for sounds.

But back to the generative ai tagging categories. Those gen ai can directly generate visuals, sounds, text and code. Can they generate a thing that is not covered by any of those 4?

You seem to consider "data" as a 5th category, if said data does not fit visual, sounds or text. If that data fits the definition of an instruction set, I consider it code. And in case of a puzzle level, there is not even ambiguity.

 Generative AI output that does not fit into the four categories, on the other hand, is common

So I would be interested in more examples of these common gen ai outputs that do not fit. The ones I came up with, are things like smell, haptic and maybe motion capture. But as no player would understand this with simple tags, I would consider them part of visuals. And smell does not exist with current tech. Also, I have doubts, things like smell or haptic would be generated with gen ai. 

A level for a game is a set of instructions. Not unlike a punch card for a mechnical piano.

So you’re arguing that audio is a subset of code. Also, factually wrong. A level can be encoded as a set of instructions, but that’s not what a level is.

It was an idea, a puzzle, the game level’s logic. And what do we call the thing that makes the game tick? Code.

Personally I call an idea an idea, a puzzle a puzzle, logic logic, and code code.

You seem to understand that data and code is the same.

So you’re arguing that graphics, audio, and text are code.

And if you interpret data, it is not on the far end of non-code data, it is on the code site.

If it’s on a computer file, you cannot access the data at all without interpreting it. You can’t even download it.

That’s a formal fallacy.

If the least X-like out all of possible Ys is classified as X, then logically all Ys must be classified as X. That’s not overgeneralization, that’s literally how generalization works.

which makes the distinction of code and not-code meaningless in a game.

That’s not game specific. You cannot tell if something is code, just by having it compiled into an exe. And you cannot tell if something is data, just because you could read it with a text editor and is a file.

We’re past the point of comparing code with data, and have reached the point of comparing code with non-code in general. I am code. You are code. The color green is code. The act of eating is code. We might as well throw the words away, because it no longer serves its purpose of distinguishing between things that belong in its category and things that don’t.

You seem to consider “data” as a 5th category, if said data does not fit visual, sounds or text. If that data fits the definition of an instruction set, I consider it code. And in case of a puzzle level, there is not even ambiguity.

You seem to think that there is a meaningful definition of “code” that includes all computer files, and all data in general, except graphics, sound, and text. Try it. Post such a definition. I don’t even care if your definition includes the color green, all I care is that graphics and sound and text are excluded and all other data files in a game are included.

The only restriction is that you can’t explicitly mention the categories of graphics, sound, or text in your definition. Because if you do, you have a wastebasket taxon that is better called “other”, not “code”.

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So you’re arguing that audio is a subset of code. 

That's not what I wrote. No, audio is not code. Audio instructions can be seen as code and they basically are. The difference is this concept: the map is not the territory. If I give you music notes to play, did I give you music, or did I give you notes...

A level can be encoded as a set of instructions, but that’s not what a level is.

So. What is a level? Because it sure ain't "plain" data as you seem to claim.

If it’s on a computer file, you cannot access the data at all without interpreting it. You can’t even download it.

What the. What? You make no sense at all here. 

Interpreting is not displaying it to a user or downloading. Interpreting is a synonym for executing code that is human readable. Usually seen in scripting languages. But a video game does just the same. It interprets your "plain data" as a puzzle level. Which makes that data anything but plain.

If the least X-like out all of possible Ys is classified as X, then logically all Ys must be classified as X. 

In hindsight I linked the wrong fallacy, but your premise is wrong. Even, if we agree for it to be on the data side of the spectrum, it is not the most un-code-like data that can be.

Maybe it helps if we consider not a puzzle level, but maybe a quest module in a game like Skyrim. Such a thing is basically a script. 

Would you accept this as "code", so we can move on? Because I am still waiting for all those common examples of gen ai usage that do not fit into the 4 categories.

Meanwhile, here my definition of "code".

Code is an abreviation for programming code or program code. Coding and programming is synonymous because of that, and the reason why a code as in password or code phrase, means something different.

A program is a set of instructions. They might loop and can get very complex, or be quite primitve. But in the end it boils down to being a set of instructions, typically executed sequentially.

A program might be: lift the needle, shift the needle to start position, drop the needle, turn the disc, loop till the needle holder reaches the end position, lift the needle, stop the disc, shift the needle to rest position.

Another program might be: turn light on. wait 1 second. turn light off. wait 1 second. repeat from beginning.

Yet another program would be: place a block at position A, place a hole at position B, place player at position C, place walls at positions D-Z, wait for player input.

If you put parts of the program into variables and can load those variables at runtime, the line between program and data blurs. If and where you put an arbitrary line between data and code is just that. Arbitrary. There is no fundamental difference between data made to be used with certain code and that very code.

So what about general data? Like images, sounds, or plain text? Are those code, because, well, a jpg is made to be used with a jpg viewer? Depends on circumstances, like intent, prior conceptions and agreed meaning of words, context and perspective.

From the perspective of a subroutine that activates pixels, whatever it is fed, is a series of instructions, which pixels to activate. From our perspective it is just plain data intended to be displayed. This gets a lot more blurry if you consider vector graphics that are hard coded into program code and not loaded as a svg file. Is the instruction to draw a circle code or data? What if I write that instruction into a plain text file? What if I call a drawing function inside the code? This was just to show that there is no clear division and not questions that need an answer.

The color green is code

It is, if you are driving a car ;-)

So. What is a level? Because it sure ain’t “plain” data as you seem to claim.

It’s an idea. Two implementation of Sokoban can have the same level despite not sharing and code or any data.

What the. What? You make no sense at all here.

Interpreting is not displaying it to a user or downloading. Interpreting is a synonym for executing code that is human readable. Usually seen in scripting languages. But a video game does just the same. It interprets your “plain data” as a puzzle level. Which makes that data anything but plain.

Wait, you mean “interpreting” in the “interpreted (computer) language” sense, and not in any more general layperson sense? Really?

A unicode text file is a series of intructions that tell you which character to render where on the screen. A potentially fairly complicated set of instructions, when you consider RTL languages, combining characters, context-dependent character form, and so on.

The Sokoban level I posted uses a very, very primitive subset of that language. Every character in the example represents exactly that character on the screen. The game runs in text mode, so the characters are stored directly in video memory. There is no data representation of the game state beyond what’s in video memory.

Maybe it helps if we consider not a puzzle level, but maybe a quest module in a game like Skyrim. Such a thing is basically a script.

I consider the actual scripting part of a Skyrim quest module to be code. Not the images. Not the text. Not the sound. And especially not map or the stats of the enemies or the general idea of the quest, although all of these things can be encoded in the script.

When someone says that they used assistance for coding I assume that they mean that they came with the game design and used assistance for turning it into code. When someone uses assistance for the game design or any of its subsets (level design, puzzle design, world design, narrative design, whatever) but writes the code themselves, I don’t expect them to say that they used assistance for coding. I do expect them to say that they used AI assistance in general.

Here is an interesting thought experiment for you. Imagine an animated movie where the director is an AI. The artists are all human, so the graphics are not AI-assisted. The script is written by a human, so the text is not AI-assisted. The sounds are all produced by humans, no AI there.

The humans don’t even need to be aware of the AI director, if that awareness taints their work in your opinion. The AI director can come along later and cut the movie together from previously created assets. The AI director makes the ultimate decision about what goes where, but creates nothing.

So, how would you handle AI disclosure for the movie? The AI director does all of the things that you ascribe to “code” in a game, but there is literally no code in a movie. Unless you count the codec used to encode the movie as a computer file.

I thought about considering "ideas" to be a separate category. But I decided against this notion, because we do not even credit humans for ideas most of the time. You usually cannot protect an idea. The implementation of an idea is covered by copyright. But not the idea itself. Some big companies try to invoke patents there. And if your "idea" involves certain implementations you might touch on trademark laws. But anyone can implement a block pushing game and how levels look will overlap.

To elaborate, yes, ideas, story, game rules and other things would be a separate category that is currently not asked in the ai disclosure. But the dislosure question is quite specific about content. The idea of content is not the content itself. You cannot buy an idea asset in the store.

If you were to have an idea and implement it with ai tools, you would have to tag the appropriate implementation methods.

But if you were to ask for an idea and would implement it by hand, you would not have to tag this. You could ask an AI to create a reference image of how a pose looks, and then hand draw your original character in that pose.

--

Why I would allocate a game level under code, is because a level is the variable states for the code. It is made to be interpreted by that code. In a computer science way interpreted. Where you read an X or a O, the code will read a wall or a hole. And it will treat those as a wall or hole, no matter if you hold it in memory as a character in ascii. It is not merely displayed, it is symbols that literally codify the level. There is a pun here somewhere about literal outsourcing ;-) 

Even if you consider it to be of the idea category, the implementation of that level is still code.

 I do expect them to say that they used AI assistance in general.

You cannot do that with the Itch's questionaire if used as the thing tells you to use it. And most importantly, players cannot filter for this with the filters provided.

--

An interesting question. I shall counter with something similar I wrote a while ago.

There is a bucket full of machine made bricks. The kid toy kind. A kid builds a playhouse with those toy bricks. Is the house human made or machine made ;-)

To answer your question and solve the apparant paradox. It depends on the context and what you are asking specficially.

For one thing, AI have no agency. Your AI director does not exist. There needs to be a human operator telling the AI to do this and you can default to that operator as the director of the work.

For Itch specifically, the question is about content. It is literally about assets plus code. The meta content of how those assets are ordered or why you chose specific assets, is not asked. But if you fused them together with an ai (the cutting), that would be code.

If there were a thing like ai disclosure for movies, there would be all sorts of positions where ai could do things and thus be disclosed in credits. That would be director, editor, cinematography and such things in your example.

For the playhouse, the house would be human made. The assets that make up the house would be machine made. But no one credits the parents for encouraging the child to build a house and explaining how a house looks and that it will fall apart if you do not have walls to hold the roof.

There is a bucket full of machine made bricks. The kid toy kind. A kid builds a playhouse with those toy bricks. Is the house human made or machine made ;-)

That’s structurally no different than a game made with AI graphics assets. Machine-made doesn’t have the same stigma as AI-made and the kid isn’t trying to sell copies of the house while competing with fully hand-made houses, so nobody is going to call the kid out on it. Using machine-made parts is OK. Heck, I use a compiler (a machine) to compile my own code all the time!

When I download real world elevation data, it is just that. Data. When I then include it in a game, it is still just data. Even if this data makes up my entire level design. The choice to use that data is design. The code that turns the elevation data into a polygon mesh that can be displayed and interacted with is code. But the data itself is just data. And that is still true if I used AI-generated elevation data instead of real world elevation data.

And my Sokoban level is the same “kind of thing” as elevation data. If you only look at the walls, it literally is elevation data: high where the walls are, low where they aren’t.

Maps are data. When they are made as images to display, they are graphics data. When they are made of tiles and spawn points, they are non-graphics data. (And when they consist of height data, they can be either graphics data or non-graphics data, depending on how the data is used. Normal maps, created from height maps and used purely for display, are graphics.) My simple Sokoban level aside, they are made in specialized map editors, not text editors. They are not Turing complete. They do not contain more than the simplest “logic”. They are not made by programmers, but by level designers.

Even if you want to call them code, because that’s the hill you chose to die on, nobody else will do the same. They’re the kind of things that beginner developers create in so-called no-code game engines because they are too intimidated to learn an actual programming language.

(If you want to say that no-code game engines are an oxymoron, I say that it depends on how limited the game engine in question is. Visual scripting is still scripting and therefore coding. But map editing is not.)

And another thing: just because something is encoded in code, doesn’t mean that thing is code. Example script:

  npc.speak("Thank you for helping out.  Here's your reward.");
  npc.give_player_gold(10);

Taken as a whole, it’s definitely code. But the thing between the quotes, that’s text. Putting it in the script is a task for a programmer, but actually writing it? That’s the writer’s job. And the number 10 is just a number, i.e. data. Even if it is embedded in a script. And while a number by itself may not be copyrightable, a database consisting of labeled numbers certainly can. It’s just a matter of scale.

If I carefully design a reward schedule for quests in my game, that’s copyrightable non-code work. If I ask an AI to do the same, that’s non-code AI work (but non-copyrightable because of AI). And if I include this schedule in the game, whether it is as a standalone file or a bunch of numbers scattered across dozens of scripts, I am including non-code non-graphics non-audio non-text AI content in my game.

I don't think more categories need to be added, I just think we need options for how much of the code, graphics ... is AI.  Ex: 20, 40, 60,  80, 100 % options. This will help us tell the difference between "AI Assisted" and "AI Created/Slop". This will also tell if human effort was put into the project without needing to play/download/pay for the game/assets. I have had to make comments clarifying this multiple times. 

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If it is not filterable, that is not helpful. There would need to be a slider, to show gen ai games that used below or above a threshold. And a percentage level is far too subjective.

If you generate an image and retouch it manually, how much percentage is ai and how much is human? You cannot tell by any objective criteria. It would be arbitrary. Also, would you simply guess the overal mean of all images? There might be some with 100% and others with 0%. But how important are they? I would say the cover image of a game is far more important than a random background.

Even for code, it is arbitrary nonsense. Big companies and news will say things like 30% of code is ai made. But this is meaningless. How much does the code do? How important is it? Oh, they might have counted the lines of code, but this is not a meaningful metric.

For Itch's tagging, just write a textual description of your ai usage in the game's description. 

Oh, and there was and is human made slop. The mere use or non use of ai alone, does not make a project slop or non-slop. Especially for mobile games there are templates and game creator sites that make creation of slop rather easy. No ai needed.

Might I suggest the Atari Title ET as an early slop game? (The one often cited as "the game that killed video games in America [until Mario came along]?") Also, what business did Quaker Oats have getting into games?

Okay, that was a read. What is the threshold for "AI code?"
- Hey AI agent, write me a "Hello World" in gdscript!
- Agent: `print("Hello World!")`
Oh, whoops, one line of AI generated code ended up in my game. I highly doubt that automatically makes it slop. Before anyone laughs, what if I ask my agent how to call a signal? What if it's not my agent, but an auto-generated answer embedded in my search engine, and now I'm contaminated with the exact information I wanted from a source someone will hate me for being honest about spotting out the corner of my eye (or front and center for half the if you use the G-search giant).

Now, if I were delegating entire systems and shaders for my agent to write, then sure, that would make for a greater chance of slop if I didn't understand it line-by-line.

Oh, get this gripe! As I understand the tags, I could prompt an AI to generate a slop game concept, then abstain from using AI output in my game proper. See, I was doing some research recently, and I saw something about how AI used at the beginning of the creative process produce more AI-like results --even when completed by a human-- than compared to an AI following up on a human's creative session. Yet the more damaging and likely to produce slop is the one we aren't going to stigmatize.

I'm quickly developing the philosophy that "Art is worth the time you put into it." If a knowledgeable artist spends a week on an AI image, massaging ControlNet into submission to produce a premium picture that means something to him and his audience, I would be more likely to value that above the aftermath of an afternoon throwing darts at a canvas with paint balloons tacked on.

Again: what is the threshold for "AI code?"

To paraphrase. Use your best judgement.

You are a coder. You should be capable of recognising if you use ai code or not.

And if you are one of those "vibe coders", yeah, that's ai coding at the fullest.

Prompting search to give you the textbook example of a function you want to use and adapting that result in your code, is not, imho, even if the result was generated by an ai. But if you ask the ai to write the functions with your parameters and copy the result, it is.

AI does not make a game slop. It's the human that releases a slop game. And there are plenty of human made slop games too. It's just that the slop game creators can make a lot of these with ai in a short time. Itch is self publishing which means that there is no publisher that would block low effort slop. In theory the quality guidelines would deny indexing for slop. But distinguishing an amateur game from professional slop ain't easy.

AI does not make a game slop. It’s the human that releases a slop game. And there are plenty of human made slop games too. It’s just that the slop game creators can make a lot of these with ai in a short time. Itch is self publishing which means that there is no publisher that would block low effort slop. In theory the quality guidelines would deny indexing for slop. But distinguishing an amateur game from professional slop ain’t easy.

You are going to to lose that culture war. In ten years, using “slop” as anything other than a derogatory term for AI output is going to be like using “gay” in its previous sense of “happy” instead of “homosexual”. Oh, the word will still be applied to human works, but the subtext is going to be “you are less than human for creating something this bad”.

I have doubts. Slop just means low quality or effort, or even waste. And it has a lot of meanings outside of software reinforcing that meaning. Not the least sloppy. Slop even is a dish. It was always a derogatory term for all sorts of things.

In some languages they seem to have used slop as a term for ai slop as a loan word. Who knows how that term will evolve in those languages.

Speaking of words, it's been a while since I heard the term shovelware. Something I would currently call slop.

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