Do every indie devloper are obsessed with 2d
or thy don’t like 3d, 3d is simple, 2d is hard maybe
ITCH.IO
Yes, I can model (not professionaly, I'm a programmer), it depends on the size and level of complexity of the model it can range from 20 minutes to weeks.
Same goes to pixel art, it's not more or less complicated, it's just different, and also modeling is just one of the 3D art areas, there's sculpting, texture art, rigging, skinning, environment, lightmaps....
2d games are awesome,
pixelart is more accessible to learn than 3d modelling
due to the low barrier of entrance on this site there are many, many 1-man teams and amateur developers, who just can't manage the workload of a 3d game
but as others already have stated, there are 3d games on the site. (the stuff by Siactro [ https://siactro.itch.io ], for example, which I very much enoy) But maybe a filter option for it similar to input devices and all that would be a good idea
Echoing everyone else's sentiment, I find making 2D games in Unreal difficult at times since its pro 3D, but 2D art requires less setup and I can make it all on my tablet in bed so it is very peaceful.
Less software, easier to learn and usually games with 2D art have more personality. I would go for 2D everyday until I have to do animation.
Making 3D games requires a deeper understanding of 3D math, at least to do it right, which can be a barrier for a lot of people.
On 2D games, it’s possible to figure out for yourself what’s happening on the screen and do custom solution to problems. When you start involving 4x4 matrices, different spaces, and shaders, it immediately becomes overwhelming, at least to someone who is not familiar with those concepts.
I saw a 4d game here :-)
But I believe the question in general is more in this direction: most devs use an engine and there are 3d engines to use, for those who do not have deeper understanding. Or rather, most do not even have a 2d understanding of their game math. So if they use an engine anyways, why not use one of them 3d ones.
I mean, there even is this rpg paper maker, that is in 3d, even though it is still pixel art.
Maybe there is an anomaly/bias in itch users, and the amateur 3d game makers are just elsewhere. Like making mods for Minetest or Skyrim.
But as your screen is flat and mouse input is in 2D, it makes sense that everything is presented to the camera in a way very close to 2D.
That what you see is a 2d projection is a necessity, since the display is 2d. Not a necessity of the hid.
In a 3d game world you typically move around. And this is done with a combination of inputs. You use several input devices or at least several commands. The mouse usually does left and right and up and down. And a command does the forward motion. That is enough to fully navigate in 3d.
What your game probably has, is a point&click interface. That input area is of course 2d, since you move the pointer in 2d. But you could minimize the interface even further and eliminate the pointer, using only selectable highlights the player can navigate between by pressing left and right. Those highlights could be presented in a 3d environment, while the hid is basically 1d.
But at this point, we could extend the OP question to real time. Why is so much on Itch static gameplay, instead of real time. On second thought, there are lots of platformers and all those rpg maker games.
(And the answer is of course the same. It is easier to do.)
Personally I don't see why everything has to be 3D these days. Quite often 2D is good enough to do the job. Of course, it also depends on the kind of game you are making. For an FPS I'd always go for 3D. For an RPG I actually prefer 2D and when it comes to a point-and-click-adventure 3D does in most cases more harm than good.
Now 2D is indeed easier to learn, both on the coding side as on the artistic side. 3D graphics can very easily turn things into a mess when not done right. That was for me a reason to stick to 2D (when I began we only had characters), not to mention that for the kind of games I like most it's also artistically the better choice anyway, so it was a win-win.
Agreed with the other posts here.
2d ui is often more intuitive, more accessible, just easier for many devs, and depending on the genre and game design there may not be a strong reason to make everything 3d from a game play pov.
Besides, some 2d titles actually do still look gorgeous. 2d game engine does not always mean 'low res pixel art.' I've seen beautiful hand drawn 2d work like in indie title 'Gorogoa' and painterly work like 'Braid' or recently 'The Master's Pupil' and then there are my aesthetic niches which vary... can sometimes include handcrafted miniature art, I have an isometric minigolf game and a first person Mystlike puzzler, both of them are in the works and each one of those two done with realistically detailed large scale miniature art.
And then there are the many, many 2d engine games that still make use of 3d rendered art. So many old 90s games did this from Simcity 4, rollercoaster tycoon, The Sims, Starcraft, the original Fallout. Myst, Riven. Less common now as 3d is more attainable than it once was but still a valid dev route especially given the continued presence of lower end systems (mobile gaming) and the fact that it is possible to make a 2d game run and look beautiful on nearly any system. 3d games with that sort of fine, intricate art detailing will typically have higher hardware requirements as the cost of the added freedom of motion.
Now, some game developers on the indie side have done amazing stuff with 3d games.
I know a number of solo indie devs who made 3d games which look graphically amazing. Carlos Coronado, Danny Weinbaum and a number of others come to mind.
It clearly isn't impossible to do 3d art in a 3d engine really well as an indie, it just adds complexity and work. Danny Weinbaum spent over 7 years working on his "cozy, pacifist skyrim knockoff" - an open world game called Eastshade.
He made about 2 million $ in Steam sales from his project, another reminder that though 3d is harder in some ways, if you do it well it can also be worth it.
But it is always also a gamble, to some extent, what if those 7 years had resulted in a total misfire? What if nobody even notices your game after you have been pouring years into it?
There is something to be said for doing a smaller thing, a demo or similar, and throwing it out to the world game jam style as a way of confirming its core conceptual appeal. A way of checking if you are going off track before committing to a huge production. If the small example finds an audience, then it is likely the larger extension of the basic thing will too. And that is exactly what got eastshade moving in the first place, it is why Danny committed 7 years to it. Because he started with a little, modestly successful short project "Leaving Lyndow" and learned from that, that the sort of game world he was making appealed to a lot of people.
I don't have a demo, I am diving straight in (for better or worse) and just gauging odds of success based on whether people respond in any way to early imagery and material relating to my work.
Maybe that is dumb but I know even if my efforts fail I will be okay life wise so... I just realize that even if some of this fails hard it isn't the end. I have game asset collections gaining ground steadily and a successful Etsy print services shop. I have fallback, that is valuable. Don't risk everything on a gamble that could fail horribly. Have a backup plan!
I want to add two thoughts to that.
Perspective is important. Something like Diablo 1 & 2 is pixel sprites. No matter how they were created. But the perspective is isometric, making it 3d, while debatedly it is actually 2d, since you could use a top down view like old Moria games. Diablo 3 did not change this perspective thing very much, but the sprites were now rendered in a 3d engine. Starcraft 1 even had height differences and flying units, but all ultimately pixel sprites and iso view.
So 3d vs 2d is related to lots of aspects. Including the engine, the assets, perspective, user interface, level design and real time or not also is a factor of course. There are all sorts of combinations. Like a 2d platformer with 3d graphics for example.
And the other thing is, that the engine and presentation of a game is not important all that much. Bells and whistles can of course help. And are expected in some instances. But ultimately, the game has to be fun enough for people to want to play it. Lacking an advertisement budget and marketing staff, indie devs are wise to do what you described. Finding out, if what they want to realize will garner an audience. Bluntly speaking , there are successful games that are text based. So having nice graphics are obviously not mandatory for success.
But if you do make a 3d game, or any other kind of game of a certain category, you will be measured by the competition in that category. There is less AAA competition in 2d games. So like that saying about not needing to outrun the bear, you only need to be better than the other hobby 2d game makers and small indie developers. And this can be done quickly if you have a good story or mechanic or plain luck and a good enough game. There are examples of really simple games that did go "viral".
Not everything is 2d on itch, there are some 3d projects, but itch.io generally seems to be for newer/beginner indie developers often - and 2d is the obvious starting point for many of them. My Itch Page has a few projects - some are 2d, and some are 3d, my latest is 3d.
I realized I didn't like 3D that much when working with Blender and Unreal. It felt creepy and not fun. 3D is like an alternate reality for me. Banjo Kazooie seems more like an activity than a game. 2D feels more like a game to me. I also like the style of low resolution and limited colors. That's not much of a defense for 2D, but there's no accounting for taste.
If it can be uploaded and downloaded, it can be released. Technical aspects would not be a hinderance. There are releases for ancient video game consoles or that playdate console. You will also find stuff for vr systems here.
And of course games are limited by their presentation. But how much d would a text game have? You could play a text game with voice output, so no screen at all.
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3D graphics require more work and (very arguably) artistic skill. My experience with doing 2D (specifically pixel) art is that it has a much lower floor than other art styles. Using small and stylized sprites doesn't require you to understand anatomy and composition nearly the same way as making a fully rendered 3D model. For artists who are just starting out and want to make artwork for their game but aren't particularly good at drawing, pixel art is something you can dive into and make relatively quickly. Of course, making really high-quality pixel art still requires a substantial amount of talent and skill.
Plus, the turnaround time is a lot quicker. I am doing all of the artwork for my game, and using pixel art means that I can create and revise artwork much more quickly than if I opted for 3D.
But I grew up on those old NES and SNES games, so admittedly I'm just a sucker for the style.
If it does not exist yet, we could introduce a concept of "depth" for any field of skill. Like creating art in a certain medium. To explain by analogy, sculpting marble or carving wood vs painting on canvas vs story writing.
Let us assume that each field has the same possible depth. Or maybe level of artisanship that can be achieved.
The point I am getting at is now this: how easy or hard is it for a non expert to judge and appreciate at which level any given piece of art is.
Are there maybe art styles where it is harder to evaluate the skill involved, beyond the mere impression of: I like what I see. For that matter, even with skill, it could still be ugly, yet you might appreciate the skill.
The "problem" with 3d is, that we live in a 3d world. We are used to seeing that stuff irl. So for 3d a assume it is harder to get good results. For pixel art it is so much removed from reality, that it is easier to get to a level where people say, oh, look, it's pixel art. Where they would say, oh, look, it is cheap looking 3d textures. Even though both artists might have the same level on that depth scale of artisanship in their respective field.
Of course it might just as well be, that different fields have different depths of achieveable skill - till a virtuoso comes along and demonstrates that there is yet another level.
id say it completely depends on your personal skills (god) blessed you with, and saying pixel art would be easier then 3d may be true for a certain amount of people but not all always depending on skill you can easily addopt which is also only about you so imo this whole discussion is kinda sensless as you all give values to art which cant be compared with each other in not a single way you wouldnt coutn a peach to some apples or?
also to call somthing easier to learn then something else is absolutely not comparable depending on individual and luck the biggest factor you all forget or better
synchronicity
:D
I wasn't arguing that pixel art is easier to learn, but that people cannot tell as easy, if you are good at it.
A better example might be abstract expressionism. Regular people cannot tell actual garbage from art in that style. Of course we could argue, if it even is art or just pretend art, just as we could argue, if a photographer creates art. But let us assume that it is art and you can be good or bad at it. My point is, that casual observers will not be able to tell the difference, while they could for something more life-like.
So in a way, it is easier to produce results that look adequate at first glance.
doesnt the passion of the artist and the effort make it art? but i understand your point sure :) but if you dont rate art then it would be okay if someone loves an "ugly" pic its okay imo if the artist felt something while he created it which you at least can recognize a bit....but its and endless complex topic. also i didnt ment to personally react to you i ment it more of other posts ive red about what may be easier to learn....soerry for that
You replied to me, instead of replying to the topic ;-)
doesnt the passion of the artist and the effort make it art?
Not really, no. Just because someone is an artist (called so by whom?), work created by them is not art. It is human made, artificial instead of natural. But the art in artificial is not the type of art we are talking about. Art is a display of skill. There can be passion put into it, and it usually makes art even better, as it engages the viewer. Even if that passion is accidentally attributed by the viewer.
Oh, I read softer definitions about art, that even lack the skill attribute. And it has long tradition to argue about what is art and what is not. There are like 5-7, maybe more defintions in dictionaries for "art".
But if you use the softest defintions, literally everything would be art. And art is supposed to be special. If everything is art, none is.
Or what about masterfully painting a portrait on canvas, catching the moment and the light with your brush - but putting no emotion into it, since it is your paid work and you just do your job. Is it art or is it not?
So maybe the heat in such discussions comes from one person using defintion A of art and the other person using definition B of art. And one of the defintions of "art" is: stuff that an artist made. But that lacks the definition of what constitutes an artist. It is circular, if you say, someone that creates art. It no longer gives information about the merit of a work and reduces art to human made. Think about it. Even without skill, anything I make is either art because I put emotion into it, or art because it was not made accidentally. Oh, and even for this, there are "artists" literally doing random stuff and call it art.
makes sense i agree sure just wanted to give a new point of view to the discussion :)
maybe its about havein a skill and always try to get better in it well as you said we wont find the perect solution to this
so the attitude of the artists is also an imporatn part well im off for now trying to create some art, see you man