πŸ€‘ Indie game storeπŸ™Œ Free gamesπŸ˜‚ Fun games😨 Horror games
πŸ‘· Game development🎨 AssetsπŸ“š Comics
πŸŽ‰ Sales🎁 Bundles

Price

A topic by Taro created 1 year ago Views: 1,165 Replies: 43
Viewing posts 1 to 9
Just curious how everyone else comes up with a price for their games.
(Edited 1 time) (+1)

Good Question.

that depends on how much information you have. If you actually have an overview of your development cost than you can use it as a baseline. Like how many units would I need to sell at what price to break even.

I think in the beginning lot of people just look at other games of similar scope and style.

You could ask random people how much they would pay for your game... but that will be heartbreaking.

(+1)

Cannot count the number of times I've heard "I'd pay for it if it was free." Gee, thank you sooooo much!

Thanks, DasBilligeAlien. I never bothered to keep track since this was a learning project, so my development cost all consisted of my own time. But I like your highly professional approach and will certainly keep it in mind for the next project(if there ever is another). Right now, I've been doing exactly that: Comparing my game to others and getting a feel for price. I just didn't think it was necessarily the most effective way to come up with a hard number. I suppose if you compare enough games/prices a suitable figure may become apparent. It's just all so subjective.
(Edited 1 time) (+1)

Yeah its never easy. But it is also plattform specific and if you want to do any sales. A game on a iOSapp store or mobile in genreall will bem uch cheaper than its PC version. Xcom cost around 50 € at reales on PC and only 18 on the app store. (I think there was half a year between the releases, maybe more.) It's important to look at comparable games on YOUR release plattform.

If you want to use the momentum of sales for your game you should give you some wiggle room in your initial price.

I nearly forgot one of the most important rules of selling:

It' always easier to lower a price than to increase it.

Price reduction is one of your most important tools in selling your game. Use it wisley.

Thanks again. I only have a Flash game and I've been keeping that in mind, but there's not as much to compare with. Good rule about price reduction. I also have one other factor to consider: If I put a price on it I have to allow it for downloads which increases the chances of pirating/reskinning etc. If I put it up as a freebie right away I can keep it as an embed and avoid that worry. Especially since I'm not finding much justification for more than a buck or two and I can't imagine any big download numbers.

(Edited 1 time)

Pirating is not something you should worry about as you can not fight it. Nobody can. You have to accept it as part of any market. Pritating and even more so reskinning is actually only a real thing after you have succsess. Only very very few games got into trouble through pirating (Freelancer comes to mind).


I personally think tha most of my games are not yet worth to be sold. So I went the freebie way.

Yeah, I hear ya. You're probably right it's not something I need to worry too much about. But I think I'm conditioned to be very conscious of copyright and in general IP protection. It's rampant in the graphic arts world(and in many others, I'm sure). Pretty much to the point it's considered acceptable. Ever heard of Fiverr.com? How else does an artist make any money creating a logo for five bucks? The BS is pervasive. Even on Etsy. Countless superhero items. I can't imagine ANY of them are legit. And Etsy just lets it happen. Anyway, I drifted off topic a bit. I try to keep a tight, heavy lid on my IP whenever possible. In this case, I don't think I'm losing out on much by holding out on downloads, so I've decided to go freebie and see how Leaf's β€œpay what you want” philosophy works out. Thanks again for all the good advice.

I feel you, I am a graphic designer myself. I know of the ridiculuss situation. A friend of mine (a german illustrator) was notfiied some day that a few of her works where printed on pillow cases somewhere in china. Sold on the streets of shanghai.You can do nothing about it.

I dont know about fiverr.com but similar sites from germany. They have modular system with logo parts and put them together in 5- 10 mins. At least some of them. But they are sold mostly at 30 - 100 Euros not 5 dollar. :D

You can't fight piracy without a massive legal budget. Even then its futile if the pirat operates from somewhere remote and most artists I know don't even have the money to send a cease and desist letter.

If you see a copyright violation of your stuff you can inform websites like etsy and others to take the them down. But it is your obligation as copyright holder. Not that of the website owner(differs from country to country of course).

Glad I could be of help. I will follow you.

The main problem however is that large companies like Marvel/DC/Disney don't bother going after small vendors. Probably not worth their time. But if you're a legit schmoe trying to sell your artwork, say putting your own robot design on a night light, you are losing sales to the guy selling R2-D2 night lights. Sure, many customers may only have bought the R2-D2 but there may have been a significant number to have bought yours if Etsy bothered to police this situation a little better. It's not like they are unaware. But they ignore the situation as long as they can get away with it since they'll make more overall sales that way. And Etsy has been called out by their vendors for other dishonest practices but I've already gone way off topic here. In any case, as a vendor you're left with the choice to try to compete with dishonest vendors, risk doing it yourself, or staying out of it altogether...by trying something else, like making a video game ;)

Yes, I think the topic is worth of its own thread.

Like in most cases its a cost/benefit problem. Is it worth to fight it? In a lot of cases no. But that is something most Indie developers will never have. Not everbody can be Vlambeer :D

On "Your Time" is just that. Your time is precious, and costly. Developing a game in your time, is still taking away from hours of you doing other things. If you're looking to keep track of development cost, your time is definitely one of the most important factors to count. If you want your game to be free, that's dandy, but when you're looking at it from a break even angle, how long did it take you to make the game, and how much time you plan on spending on the game after development should be measured.

Thanks, Wasteland Dan. I understand your point and have kept that in mind during development. However, much of that time was learning as I went. I'm actually a graphic artist who gave this gaming a shot. It's hard to separate the student game developer from the professional when considering the total time spent. The graphics, music etc. was much less time than figuring out all the game logic. Lot of trial and error. In any case, if I charge what's reasonable to pay myself for the time spent it would be a ridiculously high price. I'm already in the hole either way. Just trying to cut my losses.

generally i just look at games that are similar in scope and base it off that. i tend to go lower than most games though because i am not yet confident in the quality of my games :P

Thanks, slimefriend. I'm in the same boat. I'm expecting to give it away as a freebie and hope for the best in promotional benefit. Just hoping to find some justification to slap a price on it.
(+1)

Tl;Dr: Unfortunately I'm a bit of a goodie two-shoes when it comes down to gulping down a price of a game, so my personal perspective is one that's highly sympathetic to devs, and I do not represent most customers it seems. However, hopefully I can shed some light on consumer behavior, because even I've come under some habits when buying games that do reflect what others think.


I'm no expert on the subject, I'm just someone who wants to be a critic. Development cost of course must be considered, I am only taking the "how does it compare on the market?" Or consumer's perspective.

But I am someone who has a large collection of games, and I have talked to a number of people on the subject of price for games, and I have a few things to say on this.


-Game prices are arbitrary: Before digital downloads became the norm (at least for the indie scene, AAA has to do shipping and retail costs, etc etc. And foreign countries, particularly japan importing to anywhere else have to consider localization, which has been talked about as being more expensive then we think, not to mention that the shipping is overseas in that case as well......I think? ....would they make discs locally I wonder....?)

But for our purposes online stores like steam or our very own itch.io take a fraction of all sales off for thier own owns, paying for the service/server upkeep, and profit.

It's obvious your only selling a piece of code...a program, a complex one yes, but that's only physically some electrons. You'd think it would be obvious, but the abstractness of it is very likely a contributing factor towards customer attitudes on price these days. I would even garner that it would be easier for someone to buy a $60-80 disc then a $6-10 ......file. that disc also features some cool cover art, an instruction manual (ok, so those were made to be fun to read 10 years ago as compared to now.), and the actual, physical thing we can assign value to in our minds, if you break it, all the value is lost and must be bought again if it doesn't fall under warranty. Meanwhile, your steam game could be the most corrupted file with whatever mods or accidentally deleting you did, and you can just restore all local files, easy, bam.

With no consequence for breaking it, as well, it's even harder for our primal minds to assign much value to it, it is easily replaceable......and even easily shareable...... (sure there's anti-authority, anarchist punks out there that crack stuff for the lulz, but there's a lot of regular joes who pirate stuff, that started out because of the idea they could easily share this great thing with a friend at no cost! Wouldn't you share all the bananas if you could make an infinite number of them instantaneously? that or you'd hoard them as a money source, either way, humans can be dicks and greedy, even when they don't feel that's what they are doing, we are all flawed like that. It's just a quirk in our minds no one bothers to address, how dum, sew dum.)

This is a problem that needs to be fixed, but since anti-piracy PSAs aren't working so well, I feel it's more a sign of a fear of not having enough, or greed, whatever you want to call it, imbedded in our brains as a survival instinct, it has reared it's ugly head as something we should all strive to be above, but it's not limited to gaming, it's a general problem of humanity, and it must be tackled by showing everyone how unhappy they continue to be when they pursue wealth first and foremost in and of itself, rather then approaching the issue in the opposite, backwards fashion we have.

sorry....I got carried away there. :P

Piracy is it's own topic entirely, and one I do not feel I have researched sufficiently yet to really talk about in depth, though once I have enough info and data, I do want to address it in some way. For now, we all know the idea, and I don't think we should bring it up too much here.


-Current Market: I only started paying less then full price for games when I noticed how many deals for used games, and steam sales there were, it was just simply a cause of "why am I not getting in on that?" and couldn't find a good reason. (Before I knew anything about how that goes to retailers, and not a dev's pocket.) Unfortunately, current markets have driven prices to a very low baseline, everyone sells rather low, and anyone who tries to move away from it gets kinda shouted down. It's kinda wierd in this way, that the console and pc markets are the exact opposite from each other in this area.

I'd be alright for paying 30-50 bucks on a game if it was worth it, but it's too bad I seem to be a rarity there. And why wouldn't someone buy a game that offers a similar idea, or amount of content for cheaper?


-Unique content hours: Amoungst some of the more reasonable people I know, however, it's starting to become common for us to feel that maybe a good price tag is the one that matches with how many hours we get out of it.

thankfully, as it currently stands, gaming beats movie going by a light year in this catagory. Film tickets can vary wildly by region, and what sort of film is being used. (what I mean is, seeing it in 3D, Imax, 3-D-Imax, or none of the above?), and if you buy thier somewhat over-priced snacks.

The closest gaming gets to movie going in this manner is if you buy into the mountain dew and Doritos XP bonuses stuff, and collectors editions (oh yeah, digital sales don't often come with additional collectors edition feelies, I forgot to note that above.), maybe DLC too and such, depending on who you ask.

But essentially, regardless of how much money you've pumped into extra stuff for a game, your still going to end up with a lower dollar per hour ratio then going to the cinema. because quite simply, a film is usually 2 hours long, and certainly never more then 4, while games with a price-tag on steam are expected to be able to be longer then that due to the refund policy being available for those first 2 hours, and many games often being much much longer. I think most of us knew that too, but it deserves to be repeated, over and over again, to be reminded of it.

The acceptable ratio will differ wildly between people, but I can safety say, even me, who's very accepting of prices as long as the game is good (because I think a game being better and lasting longer then eating a meal out that lasts only an hour actually deserves more then what that meal costs, unlike so many other people, sigh.), but even I feel like, to be responsible with my money, I should ensure a ratio of $1/hour (bear in mind, that's CDN for me.), and no more. this means I have for years have been very happy with bargain bin deals of a $20 AAA game in which I played it for 20 hours or more, or perhaps put down after only that time. However, this ratio should also consider another thing in there, because, you see, a lot of devs can exploit this sort of idea to have you feel like your getting your moneys worth, but for people with large collections like myself, we tend to be too discerning for this practice........

filler content.


-Quality time: This is the most subjective thing ever, I can't even begin to address any sort of quantifiable stuff here.

This depends entirely on the tastes of the person when it comes to what sort of gameplay the game has, the quality of it's writing and/or it's plot, the aesthetic used, etc, etc, etc.

It should be up to anyone wanting to be a games reviewer, in my mind, to figure out if a game does well what it aims for, and it's something I'm very interested in. But we have to go on a case by case basis for that.

But I'll talk about the filler thing.

Even I have a limit, if your game is nothing more then wandering around doing the same mindless thing for hundreds of hours..........I will hate your game more then a game with only 10 hours or less of content that at least tries to have some sort of focus, even if it's linear. And even if that game were a buggy mess. (although it helps I enjoy the glitchiness of sonic 06 and superman 64.)

And if that game has something going for it, even if it's a game everybody hates (Dick Marconko: Rogue Warrior comes to mind), I might enjoy that game, even if I can speed-run it in under an hour, playing it over and over again for how fun it can be.

Which can be what really breaks anything to do with measuring time....because replayablity.....and replayablity, at least to me, doesn't require you to add some kind of new game plus or something like that, or long drawn out unlocks. Replayablity is really just how interesting your game is that a person will want to experience it over, and over again, adding extra content is just an excuse for people like me to keep playing it, really. (Of particular note, the RTS genre is my comfort food of gaming, especially if I can make a neat little base. Stronghold Crusader is one of my favorite games for that. I've never beaten all of it's campaigns, they're a tad difficult for me, I just play random AI skirmishes all the time.)


All I really need, at least, is a game that blows my mind with how fun it is, that I just want to play it...over....and over....and over again. If your game does that, I do not care how small it is, and I do not care what price it is. (within reason, I've never payed more then $100 CDN for a game, I find those MMO fanatics to be...well...fanatics.)

Too bad everyone else is such a dick cheapskate that feels "meh" about most of what they play....huh?

(Ok, to be fair, most games tend to be just ok for me as well, but take a little hope in that some of my favorite games I'll play for hours on end are indie or flash games, at least for me, and a few others, you could make something I'll find amazing, so just give it your best shot, and just ensure it's memorable! good music will help a long way to start, at least for me!)


....yeah, that's all I got for now, I feel sorry for you devs sometimes.

(+1)
Hey, thanks for your input! Many great things to think about.

Thank you, I feel your being very kind.

I think there was a lot of things I forgot to mention, but there's a 10K character limit, so i wouldn't have been able to say everything anyway.


I also feel that most of what I've said is obvious, and most of us knew this already, and that I was only reminding us of it.

I have heard, however, that some people making games are not as familiar with what it's like to buy games as we'd like to think, some devs are people who have played hundreds of games and have that experience show forth in thier titles, but it's possibly rare. There can be a clear line between people who make content....and those who consume it. The time commitment required has become enforced these days because there's so much of it; when it comes to youtube, many video makers including myself find that we could either watch a bunch of our favorite video makers, or work on making our own videos, and it's hard to balance between the two.


But despite all that, being someone who puts out questionable content games because they know nothing about the medium, or the market, and a consumer who just can't respect that a dev should make some money at the end of the day, are 2 extremes I cannot tolerate anymore.

So I'm hoping my split worlds perspective as a prospective critic can help everyone in this regard, generally.

The fact is, is that we have a **** of a lot we can learn from both sides, so look at some other games, learn from them, including their business model, and it kinda helps if you watch a lot of extra credits and/or video reviews of games out there. It has been noted there can be a clear relationship between the youtube indie "press" and indie devs these days, after all.

(fill in the asterics with your favorite 4 letter curse word, I didn't have one in mind, and if there's an auto-censor, I didn't trigger it, I put them in myself, and haven't an idea of which word I'd use, honestly.)


That all being said, I can understand not being able to watch hundreds of hours of video content, so leave that to me, and one day I'll hopefully have made a "Beginners guide to interactive video games and their various business models, for both Developers, Consumers, and especially For Dummies." video series.


Because I get that not everyone can get into this sort of stuff, the way I do. XP

(+1)
Well, I wasn't just trying to be kind. I agree that consumers have trouble spending money on ones and zeros while quicker to fork it out for something they can display on a shelf or in a *display* case. I have personal experience with that(not as much as others, though). But I do "get" that sense of value from something that puts some weight in your hand. I think it may be one of the reasons vinyl's made a bit of a comeback in the music biz.

Oh. I just meant, I have missing stuff there, I wrote in some mistakes, and I was honestly expecting a "we get it" reaction, it felt nice having someone respect what I had to say for once.

(seriously, I'm going to do some serious re-writes if I actually approach this in a video, which I do want to do some day.)

(+1)
Remember to post it here if you do. I'm sure many will find it informative.
(+1)

Such a comprehensive peice. For this you have my follow.

Why, thank you! :)

(Edited 1 time)

i'll give my impressions as a consumer of games.

my favorite prices that i'll usually buy games at without any problem. 5 usd for a short experience. 10 for a modest one. and 20 for a massive one. and if it's triple A, digitally 40 is okay with me. 60 requires massive hype, and even then it can still be uncomfortable.

notes : i never like it when games go for under 5, always feels like they need more respect for their game. 10 is usually an auto buy if i'm interested enough. 20 requires a bit more research if i really want it.

I think you're referring to value-based pricing. The perception of a product's value based on its price. I guess freebies slip right under your radar, then.

Bear in mind the difference between Freeware titles, and free to play games, there can be a gap as wide as the grand canyon.


I can understand the serious dislike for free to play. But I hope oz2mura doesn't overlook guinuinely good Freeware titles, some of them used to be sold, and the devs of them decided:"these games are too old and/or historically iconic to have behind a paywall, just have it, take it."


A few of the more memorable titles for me I've played, including my absolute favorite, Eternal Senia, were free.

(Although Eternal Senia isn't technically free, the dev politely asks for donations, since he can't legally sell it, but, I doubt I would have tried it if it wasn't free.........I definitely intend to donate at least $30 to him though, when I can, his game helped me in a way you might have trouble imaginating, I should really donate in excess of $100 for what it did for me, although, for what amount and type of content you get, it's a 5-10 USD bucks kinda game for most people, likely upwards of 15 CDN for me, our currency price sucks right now. XP)

(Edited 1 time)

ah, i see the misunderstanding, i'll clarify.

while it's true i don't buy free games. i have downloaded a ton of them. newgrounds, and kongregate were my main places to waste my time away. interesting enough, if those games were 5 usd and presented themselves well enough, i'd have spent it.

though i think it's great with what itch.io is doing allowing the player to pay what they think is appropriate. the thought never occured to me to use it, probably because my habitual binge free playing in the past led me to not be considerate doing so. so i'll reflect on that.

hopefully the insight of one potential buyer and my candid thought process can be of some use.

Thank you for that.


Are you absolutely sure some games shouldn't be under $5 though, what if it's a neat little thing that only lasts for 2-5 hours? Those are being perfectly self-respecting, and being respectful and honest to the buyer.


(Unless your a shovelware developer, of course. XP)

trying to explore my thoughts on that.

it's as if i have a wish for the bottom price for paid games to be 5 usd. and my expectations for a 5 dollar game is already low, my thoughts is that it's already less than min wage. so when i do see a nice looking game for less than 5 my immediate thoughts are, 'what's the catch?'. it's unfounded suspicion that shouldn't happen, but it does.

i'm going to make silly comparisons to attempt to figure out why this is. to me anything less than 5 dollars is equivalent to a snack. which i feel like even a game at all is worth more than that. and i notice that i'm willing to pay more than 8 dollars for a 1-2 hour movie. personally i enjoy small games more than movies-- so that bias itself might have to do with my thought process.

i guess what it just comes down to, i feel like games are already undervalued with the exception of triple A titles feeling overvalued. and i'm personally willing to drop 5 usd on a game that looks promising, even if it's just for an hour.

and even if these feelings don't match with the rest of the populace, i kinda wish it did.

(+1)

"and even if these feelings don't match with the rest of the populace, i kinda wish it did."

I feel ya bro, that's me a lot too.

(+2)

The elephant in the room for game pricing is that there's (almost) no marginal cost, which makes normal pricing strategies not work. You can't just slap a 30% margin on the game.

So instead, you have to pick a number where price x units sold is maximized. Which means you have to guess at the habits and psychology of potential customers. This is the big reason why discounts are so popular in game pricing. The idea is that a $20 game reduced by 50% sells more copies than a $10 game. You are signalling that the game is "really" worth $20, but you can save money by getting it for $10 instead.

In an ideal telepathic world, you would extract from each customer the exact maximum amount they're willing to pay for your game. So some rabid fans would pay $100 for it, and a fair number of people would pay $10, and finally a lot of people would pay $1 on the off chance they vaguely like it. Because you can't read people's minds and make them pay this theoretical maximum amount, you create a trade-off, wherein the sooner you want the game, and the fancier the edition, the more expensive it is. Want the Deluxe Edition at launch because you're a fan? Lots of money. Only vaguely interested? Get it in a bundle a year after the release, pay nearly nothing.

Great point. Thanks, Zarkonnen.

I second that, reduced if not non-existent marginal cost is a big factor of why prices feel arbitrarily set in a consumer's eyes, as I was saying in my large post.

I think as a developer you have to look away from your own opinion of what your game is worth because it's irrelevant, instead look at what people pay for games like yours as well as how much they sold (using steam spy and similar services). You need to find games similar to yours and ideally with around the same marketing, you'll never be able to predict how your marketing will work out but it will give you a better idea. If you find a few of these games it should give you a rough estimate of the price elasticity of demand for games like yours. This shows you how many people are willing to pay what prices. For small casual games without a big budget you'll probably find the highest players*price at around 2-4usd (at least for the type of game I was looking at at the time). So take that number as highest predicted revenue and then also take into account if you would like to undercut the market to get more players with lower revenue.

If you are releasing a game semi-professionally I would recommend this route. Take it with a grain of salt though because the game I did this for didn't get made in the end because we didn't think we could make back what we would spend developing it and for the game I developed as a hobby I just wanted as many people as possible to play it so I released it for free.

For small hobby games I like the pay what you want model but I don't want to try and make people judge the worth of a game from screenshots before they try it so for my own game I left it free to let as many people as possible play it (I know people could enter 0 as the amount but personally I would rather not play a game than enter 0 in the amount field and download it. Just makes me feel guilty.). If it were possible I think the greatest option for short hobby games would be a message on the download page that says the game can be played for free but it will ask you to pay how much you think it was worth at the end. It might be idealistic but as a developer and a player I would love if the amount paid reflected how much the player enjoyed the game, not how much they expect to.

(Edited 1 time) (+2)

"It might be idealistic but as a developer and a player I would love if the amount paid reflected how much the player enjoyed the game, not how much they expect to."

I hear that ;)

Admin

One of the more common factors I see used is approximate game time for the player. If it's a very short game, and they won't likely get much entertainment time out of it, keep the price lower accordingly. If you've got something in your game that really enhances replay value, and gives them the opportunity for significant time to be spent playing, then it's likely to be able to command a higher price. Overall, your customers are looking for value, they're gonna be thinking "So if I spend this, how much fun am I gonna get for my money?" There's no miracle formula for setting your price, but as others have said you can judge by similar games and what it is about them that players value.

I do feel that games with pretty predictable play times are easier to price. In my case, I'm currently heavily going back and forth on the final price for Airships: Conquer the Skies, which is a ship construction and RTS game. It has no plot or series of missions. So you might spend half an hour on it or 300 hours.

Another great point. Although, not that easy for my puzzle game. I know the levels inside out and have no idea how long it would take for the average player to get through some of the levels. I think I may have made the first half too easy. On the other hand the difficult ones were quite time consuming to hammer out all the loop holes. I'm not even sure I got them all. Tested the heck out of it(more time consumption) but you never know. Sometimes you miss things other people see right away.

Need a beta tester for that?

You've given ample reason to want one already.

If you plan on selling it, I am willing to sign a contract where the only compensation I am obligated to is acknowledgement. (you know, credits.), I just want to help, sure I could use money....but I'll get that with a real job, I just want to assist community members however I can, and the game sounds interesting.

(Edited 1 time)

Thanks but it's already up. I decided to go freebie with it after all. You can always leave a comment if you like it(...aaand I guess even if you don't). And hey, if Sony or Microsoft ever pick it up I'll certainly give you beta-testing credit. But don't hold your breath. I'm not (^c ^ )

http://taro.itch.io/gizmo-gate-maze

Alright, I've played the first 8 levels and am pleased, I left a comment though, I do have some complaints, suprisingly, noine of them about the pacing, so far. (unless it gets really, really hard later on?)

Thank you so much for taking it for a spin. I left you a quick note.

That was the same thing me and a bunch of other people noted.

Something I put in my large post.

But hey, I understand, ain't no body got time to read that article. :P


Anyway, I refer to it as the Currency Value per hour (you can write it as X$/Hr), but, as we've noted down below, it can be sorely inaccurate if the nature of the game leads to differring play times.

You could only be sure with linear games, like jrpgs. 60 hour story-line? alright, $60 is a fine enough price then (well, it was for me and others, but man......people are cheap-@$$ sometimes. XP)


Is 1-2$/Hr fine for some people? It may certainly not be for others, some might wish for 50 cents all the way down to 10 cents.....

At least when your a kid with the one game they might get that year, it makes sense..........but anyone else?

...........my patience runs dry with those people sometimes, which is saying a lot. XP

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvtFx4LBA5I

Rami Ismail posted this talk on his Twitter, "Jeff Vogel - Pricing, Sales, and Bundles: Building a Sustainable Business. [Summit 2015]". I just started listening to it, but it seems especially relevant to this discussion.