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Fighting against cowardace. The removal of No Mercy as pressured by an ANTI LGBT group. Locked

A topic by Antigone_Black created May 14, 2025 Views: 8,739 Replies: 115
This topic was locked by No Time To Play Jul 26, 2025

unproductive argument

Viewing posts 1 to 17
(+15)

In Short, 

The campaign against No Mercy was built on mischaracterization, fear, and moralism — not facts. "This was objectionable to some.. It was polarizing. But it didn’t hurt anyone — and if we cannot allow that, we’ve abandoned the foundation of artistic freedom.

If you want to insult or go against this. Ask yourself. why is it you get to use the ability to freely disagree... as you also argue against the principles that allow you to do so? because of the "nature of the content"? get real. What happens when the gun you use is pointed on you?The whole conceit for this censorship is irrational and bunk. So with that lack of reasons what's stopping them from having some other strange false justification to target this whole website? 

The censorship of controversial video games like No Mercy by Zerat Games reveals a chilling pattern of ideological suppression masquerading as protection. Groups like the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE) and other moral crusaders have targeted games, adult creators, and sexual expression by co-opting feminist rhetoric while aligning with conservative Christian nationalist goals. This essay examines how the No Mercy controversy embodies a broader historical and political assault on artistic freedom, fueled by panic, misinformation, and financial censorship. We argue that suppressing such works causes more harm than good—and that defending difficult fiction is a matter of cultural survival.



Let's make this very clear. 


  • Polygons are not people.
    Fictional characters do not have rights or trauma. Depictions — even of rape, coercion, or taboo sexuality — are not acts of violence. They are simulations, stories, symbols.


  • No Mercy was a consensual, adult-oriented erotic visual novel, focused on taboo fetishes, including CNC (consensual non-consent), incest fantasy, and humiliation roleplay — all of which are legal, common, and often therapeutic spaces for sexual imagination. This kind of censorship is also lead by NCOSE and other forces especially among marginalized people, including LGBT+ creators and audiences for the sake of moralzizing.


  • The idea that even depicting such fantasies is equivalent to committing or endorsing them is not only false, it's deeply authoritarian. That logic could be applied to any game involving war, theft, murder, drug use, or sadism — yet it's only sexual content that gets framed this way.

  • The idea that one could confuse the fiction for the real thing is an insult and a slap in the face to all such unfortunate victims of real life harm. 

    I do not and will not appreciate any such confusion. attacks on the character of those defending the game nor the abhorent emotional responses that amount to moral self-pleasure and policing fiction masqurading as morality. The insults and base defenses of censorship are nasty!

    You ALSO  cannot go after fiction like this and also say you help real victims. 
    As litterally said. The world has limited resources. those are resources going to attack consensual, harmless, adult content, even by one dollar or one hour of work is better suited to addressing gender violence and misogyny of the real world with real victims. 

    You don't go to Narnia trying to save the victims there because there are none. It is not only silly. but dangerously stupid to think such an effort will help. 

    The group "collective shout" is basiclly an arm of NCOSE. they make no effort to hide it. IN fact, every post they have is echoing NCOSE. 


    Abuse has only gone down with more violent and explicit media.

    And the evil "gamer" or "gooner" or whatever is not only not based in any reality. it's an intentionally inaccurate stereotpye and boogieman to rile people up to think they're fighting on the side of good. 

    No one ever went hungry in this world by selling people a fake ass moral highground.  

    Remember. "Porn Addiction" the excuse made by Josh Duggar.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_on_Sexual_Exploitation#Video_Game_...

  • (Not to be confused with National Center for Missing & Exploited Children. they renamed themselves to cause this confusion.)

    I don't know how anyone missed it. 

    Who Targeted No Mercy: NCOSE and the Censorship Industry
    The lead campaigners behind No Mercy's removal included the National Center on Sexual Exploitation (NCOSE), an organization with a long history of anti-porn, anti-LGBT, and anti-sexual expression activism. Originally known as Morality in Media, NCOSE has been described by civil rights observers and digital rights advocates as a far-right pressure group that dresses its cause in feminist and “protect the children” language while promoting deeply regressive social goals. NCOSE’s tactics are familiar to anyone who followed the PMRC record censorship hearings or the Comics Code Authority: cherry-picked outrage, pressure on platforms, and financial choke points. In No Mercy’s case, they called it a “rape simulator” and claimed it would “encourage real-world violence”—a statement that has no basis in peer-reviewed research. They also claimed that the game contained depictions of sexualized minors, something the developers specifically denied. The goal was not critical discourse—it was eradication. To shame the creators, frighten platforms like Valve, and create a chilling effect across adult games. This campaign must be seen as part of a larger historical arc of moral panic. NCOSE co-authored open letters to Mastercard and Visa to push financial institutions to stop processing payments for adult sites. Their influence directly contributed to the Pornhub scandal, where financial access was cut off after an op-ed in the New York Times—one riddled with exaggerations and falsehoods—amplified moral panic. Even Amnesty International and the Electronic Frontier Foundation warned that such crackdowns put marginalized creators, queer artists, and sex workers at serious risk.



    When they were first found out in 2017 NCOSE and similar groups used and misused certain feminist rhetoric and voices to lend their campaign legitimacy.  It's all there on their twitter. It was EXPOSED. 

    The 

    Yet no one talks about this? 

    We're past the point of fascism starting... It's already bloomed. It has infected enough minds in to cowardace. 

    Now steam can and does sometimes follow the voice of such people they also targeted Mastercard and Visa with a misleading Op-Ed in the New York times in 2020.
    Pornhub actively works and has worked ever since with agencies to report CSEM content. of which there were less than 20 instances.
    Facebook has a lot more and a lot worse. 

    The problem is also with legislation , the EARN IT act, SESTA, FOSTA which not only don't help protect people. but make sure that abuse continues. while trampling on our rights.

    It's disturbing because this reasonable call out of a far right organization has been met with derision and defense of the actions and emotional apologia of such things. 

    But the whole panic was a lie. top to bottom. 

    "...False information about the content in the game was very often repeated. People created videos and spoke with great conviction about things that weren't in it, which showed that they hadn't even launched the game. Some did such extensive 'research' that they presented graphics from a completely different game—I hope that game survived this ordeal. If this is what your attempts to act in good faith look like, we deeply believe that no one will ever suffer from being wrongfully accused by you. However, think twice about whether it's worth repeating everything you've heard from someone and whether the information you're passing on is actually true. Better yet, do some work yourself instead of blindly chasing views.
    Secondly, many people unfortunately confuse fiction with reality, attributing fabricated stories where people who play 'No Mercy' then go out on the street and commit vile acts. In general, all those who played it are mentally ill and hate their mothers and women in general. That's how it's generally presented, and we completely disagree with this. During development, we conducted hundreds, if not thousands, of conversations with people who tested the game, and everyone perfectly understood what the game was about and that it was a game. They were normal people. The same applies to the partners of all those who participated in the project. I guarantee that during production, no one was harmed, and we all consider ourselves completely normal and healthy individuals. However, we are concerned about the mental health of people who sent us emails. Some descriptions of what you would do to us were really sick compared to what could be found in 'No Mercy.'"

    Telling the difference from fiction and reality is what TODDLERS can do. 

    It was also very inappropriate to report that the game was available to 12-year-olds. The game still required creating an account, selecting the appropriate option, connecting a credit card, and paying for it. Since so many people showed graphics from a *different game*, it might mean that it wasn't so easily accessible after all. In an era where such content is available online by typing one of the most popular pornography sites, we sincerely doubt that any minor would perform such actions. Nonetheless, it’s their parents' responsibility to supervise the type of content they access.




    Such people wear a swastika on their heart. 

    And the staff and moderators that bent the knee to such bullies and such organizations.   You should be marked. It's an indictment on this website. I hope someone makes an alternative... if it was even possible given just how poorly we defended what little rights we have left. 

    Even then, Loss is Loss. even for a third rate, arguably vanilla and boring, harmless visual novel.

    Have shame and fix the problem. This is a dark turning point in Itch.io.  what next will happen? 
  • Moderator moved this topic to General Discussion
    Moderator

    (moved to the right category)

    (+2)

    ok thank you but what is that categroy and why did you move it? Is it still able to be seen?

    Moderator(+2)

    ...Look at the top of the page?!

    By the way, as explained in many places, itch.io staff doesn't watch the forum so they're unlikely to see your post. Even if they did, they're unlikely to share their reasons for taking action against a game, except with the creator and via e-mail.

    how unfortuanate now how could I contact such staff? 

    Moderator(+1)

    As explained on the contact page.

    Ok is it moved there because i still see this organized as 

    itch.io Community » General » General Discussion

    Moderator (1 edit) (+2)

    ...No, the contact page tells you how to contact itch.io tech support, which is what you asked. It has nothing to do with this forum topic or the category it's in.

    (+2)

    thank you very much and it seems that my post is aged like wine. For all the wrong reasons.

    (+1)

    Thing is, that page lists the forum as a place to leave feedback for them. If that's not true, I'm not sure it should be on there

    (+3)

    We had the same problems of mortal kombat. had the years been different and Mortal Kombat came out today, it would not be able to be. 

    i never thought people would lose or not remember their own history and welcome totalitarianism with welcome arms. 

    (+7)

    If itch.io has finally decided to draw the line somewhere on this kind of content, then I see that as a good thing.

    Polygons are not people, but you should seriously consider what you put out into the world, because everything you put out leads to more of the same and serves as a step for an expansion of same.

    These are negative fantasies, and people should be guided not into indulging in them, but towards overcoming them.

    (+6)
    you should seriously consider what you put out into the world, because everything you put out leads to more of the same and serves as a step for an expansion of same

    That is not true in the general case.

    You need a successful game. If you have that, there will be imitations and more of that. Like how Cookie Clicker spawned basically the idle game genre.

    Now, was there are craze about this game? Like there was about the book/movie 50 shades of grey? I dare say, no, there was not. If activsits did not have made a fuss about it, no one would have noticed the game.

    These are negative fantasies, and people should be guided not into indulging in them, but towards overcoming them.

    I would be interested how you perceive people that play horror games or watch horror movies. Are those not "negative fantasies" too?

    Do you know the tv show Dexter? How about that one?

    Things that are not possible in real life is a staple of fiction. I like science fiction / fantasy because of that, but also the adult genre. Soap opera drama is too real life for me. And that banned game probably has too much drama for my taste.

    (+4)

    Using less extreme negative content to justify extreme content pretty well illustrates how these things build on each other.

    As with many things it is a question of degree. There is nothing too bad about the horror genre in itself, but when people wallow in this kind of content, there is no doubt that it is damaging.

    (+5)

    If "wallowing" is the source of the issue, than you would need to prove that certain content has more capabilities of getting people to wallow in it.

    Also, you would need to prove that the problems are linked to the content and not linked to the wallowing. Overdoing an activity is usually a problem, no matter the activity.

    You do not know why people play such a game. You do not know if they wallow in it. You argue backwards. You dislike this content and try to find ways that justify banning it for other adults. Your angle was the slippery slope, and that games are somehow educational and such games do not guide people properly.

    But if your angle would be true, we could apply it to other genres as well. What good guidance do games give, where you play a criminal? Popular example is the GTA franchise. Also, tv shows where the hero is a criminal. Breaking Bad comes to mind. You think people liking that show are guided towards indulging or overcoming something? I dare say they are guided into liking the show

    I am not justifying the content. I am critisizing the arguments used to ban it. They were used decades ago for games I played.

    (+1)

    It is indeed obvious that you like to argue.

    I was not suggesting that some content causes people to wallow in it, I was saying that something that is relatively harmless becomes bad when it is indulged in too much. Certainly some genres appeal to people who like to wallow in negativity, but that is beside the point.

    You continue to use other less extreme content in an attempt to justify this filth. Your intention might be to be contrarian, but the effect certainly is a ham-fisted justification. I need provide no further description of the slippery slope, as you continue to do that quite well without realising it.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+1)

    Garbage all

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+2)

    What same treatment would that be? The movie is available in the US. Are credit card companies and stores being bullied for accepting payments for that movie too?

    That movie is a horror shocker movie which aims to disturb. It's distribution is "banned" in many countries. Germany is famous for doing such things and they now have it categorized in the same category in which also all porn is: forbidden to advertise. It previously was forbidden to sell. A sales place could not legally sell you a disc with the movie on it. It would have been a crime.

    The game is a run of the mill incest porn game with artificial pictures and a dose of non con/blackmail. The aforementioned strict Germany would not have a problem with the game. Can't sell it to minors, but that's it. It is fiction and even depiction of minors would be ok in the game, as long as they do not look like real people. The game was approved on Steam, and Steam is known to have a high entry bar. The developers overdid their marketing on that angle and got backlash. A lot of it. To the point where people would call it a rape simulator and rile up the angry mob with a lot of false claims and false evidence and the usual fallacious arguments and non arguments against games, that I lamented so often in this thread.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+6)
     I was saying that something that is relatively harmless becomes bad when it is indulged in too much

    ... that is trivially true. "too much" already makes it a true statement. When is "too much"? When it becomes bad.

    You continue to use other less extreme content in an attempt to justify this filth.

    I did no such thing. I am not saying x is ok, so x+ should be ok too. I am saying if your arguments hold true for x+, they should also hold true for x.

    Three of your points were:

    If x+ is out there, more x+ will be put out there. (1)

    x+ is bad and people should be guided to overcome fantasies about x+. (2)

    When people wallow in x+, that is bad. (3)

    Yes? Are these your points? If so, they are all problematic.

    1. You need x+ to be popular to spawn more x+. x+ is not popular. Look at popularity of horror games on Itch to see how that works. They are on page 1 and new ones are created by developers wanting to make a popular game too. It is the popular thing that spawns imitations, not the unpopular one.

    2. You assert that people fantasize about it. Then you demand they be guided to overcome this. That is less of an argument and more how you wish the world to be. So I was interested how you apply this wish to other bad things. You did not answer. For it to be an actual argument against x+ you would need to show that people would fantasize about x+ because of a game about it, and furthermore that this leads to actual harm. For all you know someone playing that game might play it precisely to overcome any real life desires about x+. I would assume most play it for the appeal of the renderings and because the taboos and bad things of real life make fiction about it more interesting. 

    3. You are begging the question by starting with a player that wallows in such games too much. You would need to prove an addictive quality of a thing or something like that to have an argument. Like alcohol. There is danger of addiction and intoxication there. So of course, if someone who drinks "too much" that is a problem in several ways. Or gambling. Playing video games is not known to have similar problems. Besides the trivially things, like overdoing it, but you can overdo anything. Even collection stamps.

    So again, no, I am not justifying content. I am critisizing how you argue against the content. Decades ago the content I played was heavily critisized by people not understanding games and fiction. They only saw people playing games where "you kill humans". And they argued how bad that was and called for bans. Mind you, those were popular games. If those type of arguments were untrue for those mainstream popular games, why should they now be true for nieche games.

    (+1)

    You may continue to amuse yourself by babbling.

    It does no one any good.

    (+2)

    "i see that as a good thing"

    because you weren't bonked. 

    in the words of Huey freeman. 
     why are you afraid to be judged and not say the right thing? 

    (+6)

    so an arbitrary line?

    why is it a good thing? why finally? if you had a problem why even publish here at all? 

    "Polygons are not people, but you should seriously consider what you put out into the world, because everything you put out leads to more of the same and serves as a step for an expansion of same."

    no it doesn't. you say they're not people. yet you use the same 

    you made a voyeur game. you have no right to speak. what happens when that is taken down because of objectification or some other line being drawn by an alt right hate group? 


    Just say you're a hypocrite and go. 


    (+1)

    The line is anything but arbitrary. In fact in the case of itch, I would say it is drawn far distant of what is damaging to society.

    Just because one thing is okay, it does not mean every single thing on the same spectrum, no matter where it occurs, should also be acceptable.

    (+5)

    you're hoping to just not get bonked with your voyeur game. 

    which may be next... because of the insidiously, flighty, mercurial capricious nature of censorship. 

    to the point where people lied about the game in the worst faith. 

    (+3)

    do you regret these words now? This is a question of a censorship this is a question of reactionary Theocratic suppression by payment processors. At the behest of extremists . That is why it was removed

    (+11)

    I do not like it, when people try to dictate what adults can or can't watch/play/read.

    There is no justification in that. If there were, we could and should ban things like the bible, because of it's content. 

    Video games are a target as long as they exist. And the arguments for how they corrupt the youth or adults are proven falsehoods. I get that BS for decades now, like when I was playing Counter Strike. It is infuriating hearing that reurgitated nonsense applied to different game topics. It was not true then, it is not true now. It is BS dished out by people not understanding a thing and trying to impose their view onto others.

    Sound arguments and true premises are alien to so many activists. No matter the focus of their zeal. They misrepresent the topic, and present their opinion as facts. And overal they try to use emotion as a tactic. 

    Fiction is not reality, but it is easier to fight. Why fight how women are treated in certain countries, if you can have an easy win by bashing an adult game? Who would publicly proclaim to like and play the game? So, not much opposition to be expected and making the world better by bashing video games it is.

    (+3)

    not if you're an activist for reason and free expression. 

    you're correct.

    how DARE anyone call this good when they care more about polygons than real victims.  and they're always guilty. they project

    (+4)

    every single time




    the very people who acted as "defenders of women" knew about harssment and kept quiet about to keep his access and inside reporting  and then published a book with interviews... so he could make profit. he only came forward when it was public knowledge. 



    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+3)

    "A great example is GamerGate... yes; i am aware of the implications on this group of guys who is really hurt over the fact that a lot of games have gone woke"
    that isn't qutie that. at all. 
    it was for free expression and taking about that apparenlty gets you labeled a white cis het male. 
    of many of gg wasn't. 




    i'm a minority as well. but the very people that were said to /..

    jesus christ Gamergate was the devil of the day and we didn't want the repeat of Jack Thompson.   some how you conflate us... with the censors? 
    even when the books and the evidence shows a very different story. Chris Ferguson of Stetson university even spoke out. 
    the woke and the ultra conservitives were the ones that not only proved the horseshoe theory was very real. but that they both censor. 




    in 2009 as far back as that. Kotaku shamed C. Viper for being a single mom represented in games and showing the reality. 

    the current critics like anita sarkesian are a cookie cutter idea of what the misogynist Aristotle used to be. That a man is seen as a person but a woman is seen as different from a man. that a woman is a woman as defined by a lack of qualities. 


    and these so called progressives will cover up women replace them with bowls of fruit. and not understand the male gaze and how it was originally meant to be a criticism of film making... that's why "Secret of the Sphinx" was made. 
    And since then gaze theory has been updated. 

    and some how. as GG fought for free expression. you blame us for the ones being in "power" to stop such things? 
    when we can't? never could?   and can't fight against bowlderization? 


    and yet this is a tumblr post. 
    abuot someone picking apart and saying things are problematic. 
    doesn't sound very pro gg to me. 



    we see Halo's remasters bowlerize and tone down.. 


    let me get this right. the people that complain about woke. ... who rightly criticize Wizards of the coast kowtowing to projecting  people thinking that orcs are stand ins for certian people. ... that censors it's neogi entry in its monster manuals. 

    the woke that take out dr seuss books by pressure and moral outratge... 

    some how they're the censors? 

    well mabye. but holy god. what? 




    Can we stop being blamed for something we didn't do and accused for things we're not? 

    to stand up against a very controling individuals that have a myopic idea on "progress" and call themselves warriors of justice... as they bowlderize and call for censorship? 








       



    CAN WE GET THE HISTORY RIGHT? 


    we are seeing less diverse games. 


    sure. some people are idiots. there's some people that are good. but... my god. 





    we weren't the ones saying CHANGE THE COVER. 



    to the point where language is so edited to the point of absurity. 

    Deleted 174 days ago

    taking the bait?

    what venn diagram? the one you pull out of your butt as the DHS has a department on "focusing on extremism in games"... that isn't extent? 

    "stopped associating with gamergate while still holding the values"  uhh. it wasn't or isn't still going on. i mean the lies and slander by media... why internalize that? 

    they weren't alt right spokespeople. they are not. 

    that is the NCOSE. the very people that were behind sarkesian. Wally Sarkesian  donated to trump. 

    the alt right was a panic job as well. for somethign that is so horrible so awful.. there's only three headliners?

    meanwhile defending the rights of people... all people... to speak ?  tht gets you tarred and feathered. unfairly. 

    https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/the-skokie-case-how-i-came-to-represent-th...

    and when it gets to the point that Tulsi Gabbard gets called Q-anon or Bill Maher being called right wing... then people have lost the plot

    (2 edits)

    how are we continually ignoring the blue whale in the room?  you'll get no objections from me from how people are calling out the right wing. yes. 

    but what baffles me is that they're doing the same thing their opposition has been doing.


    to change anything for sense and sensibility... it is to cheat people out of the past. 
    we are not entitled to comfort. 




    images and fiction cannot cause harm. only upset if one chooses. to change the rights at the animal kingdom ride, splash mountain... is to think poorly. that isn't respect it's listening to a few "concerned" people that want to exert power. and using it on be half of a conceit on be half of a large portion of the populace that share an identity.. but don't think the same. 


    "stories matter" (except if we find issue with a story).


    the de facto censorship of Dr Seuss books is alarming and no self described liberal  should ever defend lest they become hypocrites. but it was those hypocrites making the call. we need to be concerned about both de jure and defacto censorship. perhaps even more about the latter because there are no protections against it. 

    but who is leading that charge?





    even this terminally online super paranoid "billy d" still has gone on record for attacking the far right org that CAUSED THIS GAME TO BE BANNED BY GOVERNMENTS... as "chrristian justice warriors" and admonishing them rightly. 




    but i guess when people tar and feather you for that long and say nothing  is happening... when it is... they get nuts. 

    to the point where Melonie Mac rightly gets flack and pushback.... from the people that thought she was on their side of creative freedom. 

    when one of the most vocal supporters was warning against identity politics even of white people... 

     


    heck there is no gg anymore hasn't been for some time. 


    evne then. your "venndiagram". fails when there's a politcial compass pool by Brad Glasgow that showed quite the opposite story that the rest of the media fed us. 


    or how the dishonest censors are getting paid by tax payer money. 








    in the face of criticsm. 



    thing is the same guy that talked about diversity.


    i can't even repeat what he said. full chest. and now that's magically gone. the tweet is still there of course. but any associations are now gone. 

    https://archive.ph/Q320h



    this post. here. is to call out Itch. io effectivley listening to far right orginizations and their smear campaign against a game.

    here's that same personl with sweet baby inc embalzed on his profile... with "always polytron". THOSE WERE THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBE ... the leaks from polytron showed that the people at the Indie Game Awards HELD STOCK in Polytron as a tradable company. meaning they were biased and had monitary game to promote phil fish. that's why FEZ has game of the year TWICE which is against the very award show's rules. i can't even repeat what he said. 

    but they investigated themselves and found no wrong doing.  and the 

    upi 



    even puttting people at risk.
    credit where it's due

    but the credit falls short when you attack someone and try to get them divorced of the licneces and the account for the games they paid for (the licences) and get them banned off of steam because... OF CRITICISM> 


    AND THAT THE IDEA THAT THIS IS RIGHT WING... holy crap. I mean what is it called when a government is permissive of free enterprise but steps in to benefit the ideas of the state instead of the individual? 


    when there's a government porgram targeting only half the extremism and i went to "take this" in earnest for mental health because of the attacks i got... and then i was kicked to the curb. 
    SCREW THAT. 
    KABRUTUS, rather his spokes person.   they are crazy and wrong in their own right. ... fair is fair. 

    but the cordinated harassment campaign narrartive... that was wrong. the alt right? yellow journalism. 

    one can't be THAT against right wing ideas and totalitarianism when there's a government program bending free enterpise to it's own selfish wants. 
    and ironically supported by bilionares in this Pseudo-progressive mass movment that thinks everyone is alt right 
    to the point of freaking out over a green fro and the ok hand sign. 

    it's a GREAT way to be a racket. to take near infinate tax payer money and say we need to combat "the bad guys"> 

    When you use the repressive tolerance as said by Marcuse to censor and slander anything against "the one true faith". 



    and then th ey said something about how he coudlnt' keep a cat. to go for an archeological dig against his character and offense. 

    why is it. that the same things that were done by the right are now forgiven as soon as the color of the flag they fly under is changed.?


    and when the far right org NCOSE were found out.. they then used sarkesian style and intersectioanlist  rhetoric to justify?


    c'mon. 


    SESTA AND FOSTA did not pass by republicans alone. the college book bans and trigger warnings and canceling. that wasn't right wing to start. 







    when people mess up and misrepesent history and censor in a way for a politic... because history isnt' politically correct? 
    it's almost religious dogma at that point. 

    some how we get this



    but then very NOT right people approve of covering up rouge the bat? 


    that such depictions cause "harm". there's the same alarm bells but coming from something that isn't right wing... at all.. 

    as much as it has in common with the right wing. why is the right wing RIGHTLY admonished... when censorship and fascist tendencies are ignored? 

    that we have a living and thriving racket of Beta Readers and Sesnitivity consultants, narrative consultants. getting tax payer money to ADVISE and sanitize?

    sure a lot of the anti-woke have NO idea what they're talking about. they don't know about Gramcsi and his long march through institutions... Year zero, demoralization... over an elk statue that was said to be white supremacism.... because everything is even when it isn't. 

    or the robber barrons of post modernism... post modernism has a place but Chomsky was very good at dismantling THAT. 

    you can accuse anyone who drives a car as being anti pedestrian in light of all the violence and vehicular unintentional manslaughter and murder that happens to those on the receiving end of a car.  and even those who don't own a car as being anti pedestrian adjacent and holding up an anti pedestrian culture... 

    And it all shares the same dumb language. 




     

     the very thing we were told wasn't happening and now we're told happened and is a good thing. 

    it's so totalisticly there .


    it got to the point where the making of D&D has a dishonest and even slanderous foreward by some dishonest compiler. 




    but those who write the present have control of the past and future. 

    so much so that not even the conservitive right wingers were able to cover up bikini Leia and omit the name of Boba Fett's ship for FEAR of bringing up generational trauma or some other equally stupid conceit that thinks SO little of bipoc. 



    it gets so bad it becomes almost religious levels of denial. 


    and depersoning. 





    falsely attacking atlus for "transphobia" homophobia and then attacking and threatening the wrong guy at the company... or whatever that wasn't right wing. 

    Some people just switched sides because their principles didn't change... the world did and not for the better. 


    https://reason.com/2018/12/31/louis-ck-comedy-leaked-footage-parkland/ the humor didn't change. we did. what was judge through the planet of cops of social media and the current powerstructures... it's baaad. and i'm sick of ignoring the majoirty of the abuse because of the side it comes from or deflecting it on to a convenient explaination that doesn't match material fact.

    T
    HE BITTERNESS. is enough to choke a leviathan. 



    thing is, totalitarianism comes in all colors and flags and there is a brand of it we're ignoring... because the flag and the conceit is something that pretends to be progress and the continuation of the persuit of human rights... when it's not. 



    Did the right wing censor and call for this game to be censored? YES. THEY DESERVE THE WORST SPOT IN HELL TO INFRINGE OF THE VERY CREATIVE FREEOM AND THE HUMAN LIBERTY ENSHRINED IN THE LAW THAT THE CONSTITUTION AND THE FOUNDING FATHERS FOUGHT FOR... THEY DESERVE AN ESPECIALLY HOT SPOT IN THE CIRCLE OF HYPOCRITES. 

     THEY DID. BUT ENABLED BY VERY DISGUSTING AND UNCHECKED ATTITUDES. Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton both shat on games and attacked their free expression for decades and with attitudes that are anything but right wing. ... even if they're just as hypocritical as they pointed to a boogie man... 

    when, really... 


    they're essentally the same people. 



    and yes comics too.


    let's say you'er right... maybe there was something that pushed people? 
    If a conceit is popular. understand why it is. 


    Deleted 136 days ago



    the people against "woke" are the ones saying that this remake was bowdlerized and censored... because it is. 

    "saying they got bored and joined government". .. DOESN'T make sense to the material facts. 

    "









    how is this hate of women? well it isnt' but someone has been convinced of that. this is a post from RESET ERA. 





    every damn time. 

    Did everyone else forget?

    (+3)

    Porn is not speech.  It is not authoritarian to decide you don't want to let people sell porn on your platform.  And feeding a perverse appetite doesn't protect anyone, in fact it will likely cause that appetite to grow.  Do you believe that someone who plays a rape fantasy game is less likely to commit sexual assault than a person who doesn't?  Maybe we should encourage people to fantasize about something other than rape and incest with the things we create and publish...

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+4)

    Disagree.  By playing a rape/sexual assault fantasy game (or, in other words, fantasizing committing about rape/sexual assault), you cause the desire within yourself for rape/violent sex/sexual abuse to grow.  Just like with an addiction.  No one wakes up an addict.  It happens like this:

    1. Someone has an unhealthy desire.
    2. They indulge it.
    3. The desire grows stronger.
    4. The way they indulged it before no longer satisfies.
    5. So they indulge it in a more extreme, focused way.
    6. Repeat.

    It may be that not everyone who plays SA fantasy games like this will follow through and really do it.  But do you seriously believe that someone who fantasizes about sexual assault (and is aroused by it) is less likely to actually do it than someone who doesn't???

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (1 edit) (+3)

    What do you mean, "sexual predators will not play these games"?  Why wouldn't they?

    Tobacco addiction still fits my illustration.  There are many pack-a-day type people.  But they don't start like that.  They start small and need more and more until they are pack-a-day types.  Some may stop before they reach a pack a day.  But they are still far closer to that than someone who never starts.  And they still suffer many other negative effects from their use of tobacco that those who never started don't have.  Additionally, tobacco is not fulfilling a perverted, evil desire the way sexual assault is.  With sexual assault, the end result is far worse.

    I'm not blaming rape or sexual assault on the video game.  But first person shooters -> school shootings is not an apples-to-apples comparison.  Most of them are in the context of war, which is different from school shootings.  I would condemn a "School Shooting Simulator" game on similar grounds that I would condemn this game on.  If a game contains purposeless, realistic violence, and the sole point of the game is to revel in that violence, I would say that raises red flags.

    The idea that what you do for entertainment doesn't affect the rest of your life outside of that entertainment is just laughable.  Pay attention to your own life, and you will see that it is true.  Playing a game like this can contribute to the perverted desires that negatively affect everyone who has them, and can drive some to do terrible things.  Meanwhile, what's the upside?  It is fair for a platform to decide to remove porn (which is not speech) that negatively affects everyone and benefits no one.  As someone who has use this platform for years, I support that decision 100%.

    I think that the best option would be to refrain from committing sexual assault AND to refrain from fantasizing about it?

    And if I were running a platform, I would be absolutely justified in removing content that promotes such things.

    Deleted 177 days ago
    (+1)

    The issue with guns isn't that it's "the gun's fault" it's that it's way too easy for batshit insane people who want to commit gun violence to get their hands on a gun. Background checks for gun ownership are pretty much nonexistent.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+2)

    Because this game glorified and romanticized the topic. It portrayed it as a good thing, a fantasy, rather than as the immoral act it is. It was made PURELY for the player's sexual gratification.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    Deleted 136 days ago
    (2 edits) (+1)

    Yet another undocumented feature on Itch...

    Moderator(+2)

    Turns out that changed at some point. Now blocking someone also prevents them from replying directly to one of your posts. (They can still post in a topic you started.) The error message is oblique, and I don't remember seeing this feature announced, so it can be confusing.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+1)

    Sigh. Itch being Itch again.

    And kids being kids. Plugging your ears against arguments. I can understand blocking people for various reasons. But blocking people you are having a discussion with, that is just lame and immature.

    (+3)
    Do you believe that someone who plays a rape fantasy game is less likely to commit sexual assault than a person who doesn't?

    I do not believe the typical person that commits sexual assault is a typical video game player to begin with. But as it is with any crime and popular hobbies you will find an overlap. But cause and effect do not even go into that overlap. Video games are no longer only for nerds.

    You are engaging in the same faulty arguments that are around for decades to bash video games and the people who play them.

    By playing a rape/sexual assault fantasy game (or, in other words, fantasizing committing about rape/sexual assault)

    This is a fallacy.

    So you accuse me of fantasizing of being a real life mass murderer when I play some first person shooter or basically any role playing game where you collect experience by killing?! Because that is what your logic boils down to. You assert that people who play such games fantasize about doing those things in real life. And from this premise you construct your argument how bad those games are. It is fallacious. Your premise is wrong.

    If you want to argue soundly, try finding statistics that would link a rise in certain crimes with the popularity of certain games. But even if there is a link, the question is, what is cause and what is effect. A high unemployment rate can be cause for both - people having time to play games and people doing bad things.

    Since a crime like sexual assault was done long before games and is still done in areas not known for their video game culture or freely available adult games, it is highly doubtable that there is a causal connection.

    There is of course a cultural bias, but Japan is infamous for their adult games including questionable topics. And what do the statistics say about them? They have one of the lowest sa statistics worldwide. Some people even argue the opposite cause and effect and claim that this fantasy outlet reduces such crimes.

    My stance is, that people can distinguish between fiction and reality. It is one of the first things we learn as infants. Pretend play. And they engage in fiction for entertainment, and not to fantasize about doing that fiction thing in real life.

    (1 edit) (+2)

    First of all, this idea from gamers that what you do for entertainment has no effect on the rest of your life is just not true.  I've heard this before, about how people bash gamers for playing violent video games, and how it is essentially bs.  But it is simply incontrovertible that something you spend multiple hours doing every day affects the way you think and see the world.  How could it not?  A person who fantasizes about raping their stepmother, or is entertained by the idea of doing so, is absolutely feeding a desire that will grow and create destruction in their life.

    I do not accuse you of "fantasizing of being a real life mass murderer" when you play FPS games.  I certainly hope you don't do that.  As I mentioned in another reply, FPS shooters to mass-murderer is not really an apples-to-apples comparison.  A better comparison would be a game where players perpetrate a school shooting or something like that.  I would say a game that is based around purposeless, realistic violence, where the point is to just revel in the act of inflicting harm on other people is bad.  A platform like this, would be justified in removing such a game.  It is for similar reasons that I feel they were justified in removing this one.

    I'm really not interested in playing the statistics game.  The lack of some "statistic" linking a game where you sexually assault your stepmom to real-life sexual assaults really doesn't prove anything.  You can find a statistic to support almost any claim in the world if you look hard enough, even nonsensical ones.  There are many other factors that contribute to SA that could easily conceal the effect of one video game.  But that does not mean the effect is not there.

    By playing a game where you do something like this, you subconsciously normalize such things in your mind, and in a way, glorify them.  And I cannot condone normalizing or glorifying sexual assault.

    In your last paragraph, you said that people engage in fiction for entertainment.  The fiction we are talking about here is sexually assaulting your stepmom.  If anyone finds that entertaining, I would say that is pretty messed up and that they should stop entertaining themselves in that way.

    Summary

    What you do for entertainment has an effect on the way you look at the world.  That includes video games.  A video game where you commit SA is included in that.  The effect such a game has is bad, as it leads to the normalization and glorification of SA.  If SA is normalized and glorified in someone's mind, they are more likely (not guaranteed, just more likely), to view it as not a big deal and be dismissive of it.  Therefore, it is a bad idea to play a game like that.  And knowing that, a platform like this can and should refuse to list it for sale.

    (+1)

    you used CHAT GPT to think for you with that summary with no evidence.

    on your feelings. 

    in fact. the peopel that have such fantasies are on p hub and NO ONE IS HARMED. the more accessablity the more violent crime has gone down. 

    The people who speak out against such games and actually surpress. have the worst track record. 

    your disagreement to the contrary comes with no evidence. such convictions... should have you seen as dangerous. VERY dangerous. 


    (+1)

    No, I wrote that summary myself.

    It's pretty scummy to baselessly suggest that I might be a child molester, or to compare me to one.  But I would expect nothing less from someone who made an account on this site just to complain about some SA virtual porn being removed.

    (+1)

    Bold of you to assume they used AI for a summary they wrote themself when you can't even use basic grammar or have proper spelling.

    (+2)

    "First of all, this idea from gamers that what you do for entertainment has no effect on the rest of your life is just not true.  I've heard this before, about how people bash gamers for playing violent video games, and how it is essentially bs.  But it is simply incontrovertible that something you spend multiple hours doing every day affects the way you think and see the world.  How could it not?"

    Well if it doesn't work for violence how does it work for sexual violence?

    "  As I mentioned in another reply, FPS shooters to mass-murderer is not really an apples-to-apples comparison. " they're both violence. it really is that. 
    It is dishonest and slimy to say otherwise. 



    "or is entertained by the idea of doing so, is absolutely feeding a desire that will grow and create destruction in their life."

    that's the same thing said about violence in video games that has since been disproven. the verytthing you call BS.
    "I'm really not interested in playing the statistics game. " 
    you're not interested in any evidence.

    you should not play games. at all. you aren't even fully capable.

    who gets to decide? who is good enough? you just want to decide for others or think there's someone good enough who can. but wouldn't that person become the most debauched? how are you or anyone able to even tell what or where these problematic things are? 

    "The effect such a game has is bad, as it leads to the normalization and glorification of SA.  " how?

    where? there are games that glorify and gamify violence that YOU enjoy if we take a look at what you buy and consume. 

    that summary has nothing but an emotional plea and an argument for control out of "concern" over unfounded things. you make bold cliams with no proof. 

    are you even human? how many women have YOU hurt? 

    (+1)

    I have hurt no women.  How many have you hurt, Antigone_Black?  And what do you mean by "are you even human?"


    "Well if it doesn't work for violence how does it work for sexual violence?"

    It does work for violence.  If you spend hours a day pretending to engage in violence, that will affect the way you think and see the world.  And it will normalize violence in your mind, which may cause you to be more prone to violent reactions.


    "they're both violence. it really is that. 
    It is dishonest and slimy to say otherwise. "

    We can distinguish between different types of violence.  Your suggestion that we can't is asinine.


    "that's the same thing said about violence in video games that has since been disproven."

    Disproven?  I haven't seen it disproven.  And I have researched this.


    "you're not interested in any evidence."

    As I said in the full reply, you can find a statistic to support any claim you want.  By all means, go google some studies that support your point.  Then I will go do the same thing for my point, and we will go round and round the circle forever, and never get anywhere.


    "where? there are games that glorify and gamify violence that YOU enjoy if we take a look at what you buy and consume."

    No, I don't play games that glorify purposeless, realistic violence for its own sake.  Just like I don't play games that glorify SA.


    Finally, my summary was anything but emotional.  I clearly drew the connection between using SA material for entertainment, and how that leads to SA being considered normal and acceptable.  I then stated that because of that, people should not play the game, and that itchio was justified in removing it.  These are not bold claims, they are claims backed up by common sense and reason.

    I have been charitable in answering you, but you have not been so with me.  you have baselessly compared me to a child molester and implied that I am a sexual abuser.  Why so much aggression?  You are acting shamefully.  

    I don't know how some people can't wrap their head around the fact if you find a game about rape sexually gratifying, that you are genuinely fucked in the head and, yes, more likely to commit the act than someone who doesn't.

    (+1)

    I think people don't like being confronted with the real-world implications of their entertainment.  People will use arguments like "it's a far-right plot" or "there are no studies that conclusively demonstrate a causal relationship between x game and y real-world result", or etc to avoid having to honestly and logically assess those implications.

    Highly likely. People in this thread comparing it to GTA are laughable in my opinion, also. No Mercy was made specifically for the sexual gratification of the viewer, and anyone with a basic understanding of how porn addiction works knows that it's a bad idea to cater to the more-extreme side of things, because then they're a step away from their addiction worsening and, while unlikely, them actually needing to commit violent sexual acts to real people, even if not flat-out rape. GTA, needless to say, isn't a game made for sexual gratification. Sure, it's NSFW, but NSFW in the sense that the language and violence aren't workplace-appropriate, and nothing more. Violence in GTA has societal, monetary, story-related, and social consequences. The story heavily involves these consequences. The point of GTA is to tell a story. Sure, there's a non-story mode, but it ultimately is to tell a story and has consequences for bad actions. It doesn't glorify the actions shown. No Mercy existed only for shock value and for sexual gratification, the two are in no way comparable morally. A game about a rape has the right to exist and can even be highly praised (see: Mouthwashing), but is still subject to criticism if improperly created. No Mercy did not approach rape as the horrible act it was. It approached it as power-tripping fap material.  No Mercy wasn't made in good faith and deserves every bit of flack it gets and deserves to be banned- games uploaded on privately owned websites are not free speech- sspecially with how we live in a society that blames victims for being raped. Thank you for your respectful reply, and I agree.

    (+1)

    https://www.woodhullfoundation.org/fact-checked/porn-does-not-incite-violence/


    This is not true at all. You are going on feelings instead of facts . Your reasoning is not reason it is dangerous

    (+2)
    First of all, this idea from gamers that what you do for entertainment has no effect on the rest of your life is just not true.

    What you do for entertainment has of course influence. This is not in dispute - not from me. But you do not bring any evidence that entertainment x brings about bad thing y. Search out studies, bring forth evidence. Make your arguments sound. Convince me. You can do that with sound arguments! You will achieve the opposite with unsound arguments.

    What you brought was essentially wishfull thinking. You assert that playing x is bad because whatever your chain of logic was. There is another chain of logic that playing x would suppress any urges to try out x in real life, which would make games about x a good thing, would it not. You did not disprove that. I actually looked at some statistics, and the orders of magnitude between Japan and "the West" ist about 2 : 40. Let's round that down to x10 because of cultural bias. So, a place where games with such questionable content are more available has a ten times lower rate of crimes like SA. I take that as a strong hint, that your chain of logic is what I said: wishfull thinking. You think it works out that way. But it does not and might even work the complete opposite way: someone seeing/playing/reading a thing in fiction realizes that they could never ever do that thing in real life. But they still might enjoy the story or artworks or gameplay, just as we like to watch horror movies and play horror games.

    Now, I am not convinced that it does work this way, but data and my own decades long experience in video games hint at it, and I want a lot better evidence than your assertions to contemplate restricting adult entertainment that consists of made up things and pixels. I have no right to restrict another person's choice of entertainment. Even if I am appaled or disgusted by it. Even if it depicts fictional things that are illegal in real life.

    A person who fantasizes about raping their stepmother, or is entertained by the idea of doing so, is absolutely feeding a desire that will grow and create destruction in their life.

    There is a break in logic here. You start at the point where you already have someone contemplating actual crime. You beg the question. You also equate being entertained to fantasizing about the thing. And that is why I accused you of accusing me of fantasiszing about mass murder! You assert a psychological mechanism and you assert a motivation. There is no reason to believe these things would only work for adult games.

    Oh, and you also assert what feeding the desire with fiction would do. Convince me with data and not with assertions. This mechanism has been debunked for decades, which is why I am fed up with the blame-the-games-rhetoric. There is no need for video games to make people do crimes. But they are a ready scapegoat to blame. Music got the same treatement when video games were not a thing. It is the same again and again.

    where the point is to just revel in the act of inflicting harm on other people is bad

    ... but it is not other people. You just assert that those people fantasize about doing things for real. You do not know what their motivation is. I assure you, a game without any gameplay will get boring quickly and the novelty factor of seeing realistic graphics wears off quickly. You need things like story and gameplay. What fades less quickly is the annoyance if you see signs of censorship in the game you are playing. Someone trying to impose their agenda on your entertainment. Kinda like the beeps in some audio tracks. 

     There do be people inflicting harm on actual people in games. But that is another topic entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griefer  

    The effect such a game has is bad, as it leads to the normalization and glorification

    You phrase this like an argument, but this is a claim. You did not substanciate this claim beyond offering your psychological mechanisms, which have been debunked decades ago. You make a step from fiction to reality. But you did not explain that step. You just assert that it happens.

    Do not blame video games. Do not blame fiction. There is no easy excuses or scapegoats for what some humans do. And I am glad about anyone being able to blow off steam by playing a fictional game. In ancient Rome people would watch real people get killed in arena games. I think entertainment has bettered a lot after the rise of fictional games. 

    (+1)

    I must say that although we clearly agree on little, I appreciate that you have responded civilly, unlike OP.  

    I am glad we agree that entertainment has influence.  The question now is what influence does it have.  The main evidence that I have presented so far is logical: that if a person uses SA as entertainment, they must accept that it is entertaining, which means that they must, on some level, view it as acceptable.  People are not entertained things that they view as totally unacceptable.  And people tend to do things that they believe to be acceptable.  You would agree with that, right?

    "What you brought was essentially wishful thinking. You assert that playing x is bad because whatever your chain of logic was. There is another chain of logic that playing x would suppress any urges to try out x in real life, which would make games about x a good thing, would it not. You did not disprove that."

    First of all, I find that chain of logic to be faulty.  How would playing a game suppress such urges?  Speaking of things that have been disproven, the idea of "blowing off steam" to suppress desires has been accepted as false and damaging.

    Secondly, I demonstrated that feeding addictive behaviors leads that desire to increase, causing people to need more in order to satisfy.  And I did it using a pattern that everyone can recognize in addiction, including drug addiction, porn addiction, etc.  Can you point out a fault in that chain of logic?  I pointed out the problem in the chain you suggested.


    "But it does not and might even work the complete opposite way: someone seeing/playing/reading a thing in fiction realizes that they could never ever do that thing in real life."

    This is where the realism of the game comes in and becomes important.  In a game like Warhammer, where everything is so obviously fictional and impossible, this principle might apply.  But there is nothing "impossible" about sexually assaulting someone.  It can be done.  This is an important distinction.


    For your example about Japan:  I admit that I know little about SA games from Japan because I don't play such things.  But this is why I don't think statistics can really tell us the full story.  Why did you decide to round to x10?  Seems pretty arbitrary to me.  There are a whole host of other factors like I mentioned before (apart from "cultural bias") that could hide the impact of their SA games.  Underreporting, harsher penalties for sexual criminals, possible differences in legal definitions and counting systems just to name a few.  Your example makes so many assumptions that I find it functionally useless.

    "Now, I am not convinced that it does work this way, but data and my own decades long experience in video games hint at it, and I want a lot better evidence than your assertions to contemplate restricting adult entertainment that consists of made up things and pixels. I have no right to restrict another person's choice of entertainment. Even if I am appaled or disgusted by it. Even if it depicts fictional things that are illegal in real life."

    Not much to say here.  I just don't agree.  I think its fine for this platform to choose to restrict access to SA material.  No rights are violated.

    "There is a break in logic here. You start at the point where you already have someone contemplating actual crime. You beg the question. You also equate being entertained to fantasizing about the thing. And that is why I accused you of accusing me of fantasiszing about mass murder! You assert a psychological mechanism and you assert a motivation. There is no reason to believe these things would only work for adult games."

    There is no begging the question because the person we are talking about is playing the game about raping their stepmother for entertainment.  And I never claimed they work exclusively in adult games.  But I do claim that is one place where they work.  Also, remember that I said that all FPS games to mass murderer is not a comparison I would use.


    I'm sorry you are sick of the "blame-the-games" rhetoric, but as I said, the games you play have an effect on your life whether you are sick of it or not.  The mechanism I mentioned, which is that what you do for entertainment affects how you view the world, and that how your view the world affects how you act, is just obviously true.


    "... but it is not other people. You just assert that those people fantasize about doing things for real. You do not know what their motivation is. I assure you, a game without any gameplay will get boring quickly and the novelty factor of seeing realistic graphics wears off quickly. You need things like story and gameplay. What fades less quickly is the annoyance if you see signs of censorship in the game you are playing. Someone trying to impose their agenda on your entertainment. Kinda like the beeps in some audio tracks. "

    You talk about the "novelty factor" wearing off.  This means it becomes normal.  In a game like this, where SA is the topic, that means the novelty factor around SA wears off, and it becomes normal.  This is bad.

    Finally, with regards to your frequent requests for data: Show me some data that proves that playing games featuring SA has no correlation with viewing sexual assault as acceptable.  We could go back and forth sending each other links to studies supporting our opinions for a very long time, and never get anywhere.


    Certainly, SA is not the exclusive fault of video games.  But, if a game contributes to the novelty factor of SA wearing off, it is a game that I would not host on any site I own.

    (+1)

    OP is on a rant. I only understand half of it. But some things like that picture with the kid playing games and getting it from the adults and the young adult getting it from the older people with the same BS in different words, is how I see the situation. I saw it happen. I was there. 3000 years ago.

    The main evidence that I have presented so far is logical: that if a person uses SA as entertainment, they must accept that it is entertaining, which means that they must, on some level, view it as acceptable.

    That is not evidence. That is your hypothesis how this works. Exchange SA for murder and apply your hypothesis to all those crime tv shows. Crime is popular entertainment since like forever. So society should have accepted it long ago as socially acceptable. Is this so? No. Hypothesis rejected.

    How would playing a game suppress such urges?

    How it might do so? You play the game and control the events. You are playing. A pretend sitation in a safe environment. You do a bad thing. You might snigger and lough at the absurdity. Or you might feel bad for hurting some imaginary pixels. Either way, you might take away from it, how you would react in a real sitation and then have fun in the unreal situation and fool around. Not unlike some people go over imaginary discussions while in the shower.

    the idea of "blowing off steam" to suppress desires has been accepted as false and damaging

    Care to link me to some data about that? And what kind of desires are we talking about. I am not asserting that clinically insane mass rapists can cure their urges with that. I am merely protesting your assertion that playing such a game creates those urges or creates a demand for more, and the data I saw and my own experiences with games suggest that if any, there is the opposite effect of what you described. I for sure do not feel the urge to murder people. And I find guns abhorent. But willingly engage with them in a (virtual) play situation.

    Secondly, I demonstrated that feeding addictive behaviors leads that desire to increase

    Your premise is an already addicted person and you did not demonstrate, you asserted. Also, addicted to what? SA? Playing games?

    The connection you try to make, is, that being addicted to a game with fictional content (or playing that game) will leap over to being addicted, or even try out that thing in real life. 

    But there is nothing "impossible" about sexually assaulting someone.  It can be done.  This is an important distinction.

    Murder is also very possible. Or stealing cars like in GTA. Wait, so if SA is happening to furry bunnies, it would be ok? It is a game! People know that they play a game. It is a bit condescending to only allow them to see the difference, if it is about Orcs, but not allow them to see the difference, if it is about regular humans.

    But this is why I don't think statistics can really tell us the full story.  Why did you decide to round to x10?  Seems pretty arbitrary to me.

    It is. But saying x10 much is easier as 1.34 / 41.8, and it catches more countries. Actual numbers are here https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country

    You can feed a lot of cultural and statistical bias into those numbers to even them out. But if video games about the crimes are relevant here, I would expect the numbers to be a lot closer together, or rather expect the Japanese number to be bigger and not to be x31 smaller. So I either accept that the video games are not relevant here, or I accept that it has the opposite effect of what you claim.

    I do not know the situaion in other countries in regards to the availablility of such video games. Are they very popular in Britain maybe, because they have more than double the amount than the US?

    You talk about the "novelty factor" wearing off.  This means it becomes normal.

    No. It does not become normal in real life! It becomes a seen thing in such games. It's novelty bonus fades. It contributes less to the entertainment. 

    We could go back and forth sending each other links to studies supporting our opinions for a very long time, and never get anywhere.

    I am awaiting a link to something that would support that connection you try to establish. It did not work for fps games decades ago. And for SA specifically, the data contradicts the assertion. The place where those games are known to be readily available for adults has one of the lowest SA rates on the planet.

    (1 edit)

    I see that LOTR reference :D

    "That is not evidence. That is your hypothesis how this works. Exchange SA for murder and apply your hypothesis to all those crime tv shows. Crime is popular entertainment since like forever. So society should have accepted it long ago as socially acceptable. Is this so? No. Hypothesis rejected."

    It is not empirical evidence.  But I am not using the scientific method here because we are not conducting a scientific experiment, so no, this is not a hypothesis.  It is a fundamental point that if you find something truly unacceptable, you will not do it.  If someone is disgusted by spiders and finds their presence truly unacceptable, they will never get a pet tarantula, nor will they ever knowingly and willingly touch a spider.  If they did so, then they would be accepting the presence of the spider in the very act of getting the pet.  The same applies with SA.  In the very act of entertaining yourself with a SA game, you are finding its contents (SA) acceptable.  This is one main reason why I think itchio's removal of this game was acceptable: to encourage people not to accept SA.


    "How it might do so? You play the game and control the events. You are playing. A pretend sitation in a safe environment. You do a bad thing. You might snigger and lough at the absurdity. Or you might feel bad for hurting some imaginary pixels. Either way, you might take away from it, how you would react in a real sitation and then have fun in the unreal situation and fool around. Not unlike some people go over imaginary discussions while in the shower"

    Respectfully, I do not think this is how people are playing this game, and that you might be being a little intentionally obtuse.  No one is snickering and laughing there way through this game because it is so absurd and amusing.  And no on is playing it to try to learn about how they would react in this real life situation.  They are playing it to masturbate, to fantasize.  How many players of this game do you think are selecting the option to refrain from having forcible sex with the character in the game?


    "Care to link me to some data about that? And what kind of desires are we talking about. I am not asserting that clinically insane mass rapists can cure their urges with that. I am merely protesting your assertion that playing such a game creates those urges or creates a demand for more, and the data I saw and my own experiences with games suggest that if any, there is the opposite effect of what you described. I for sure do not feel the urge to murder people. And I find guns abhorent. But willingly engage with them in a (virtual) play situation."

    Perhaps I worded my claim a too strongly in my last message.  But the whole idea of "blowing off steam" to suppress perversions (his term!) is rooted in Freudian psychology, which has been criticized for years for being pseudoscientific.    And, even in Freudian psychology, there are nuances to this idea that phrase "blowing off steam" does not adequately cover.  I encourage you to look into the widespread criticisms and nuances of [Freudian psychology catharsis theory] if you are interested in this (in the [] would be a good search term).  I won't be dropping a ton of links, but the abstract of this paper might provide a decent starting point: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1985-26058-001

    Additionally, I clarified that playing a game like this would not make all players desire to commit sexual assault.  But it has an effect of exacerbating those tastes particularly in those who already show tendencies toward violence.


    "Your premise is an already addicted person and you did not demonstrate, you asserted. Also, addicted to what? SA? Playing games?

    The connection you try to make, is, that being addicted to a game with fictional content (or playing that game) will leap over to being addicted, or even try out that thing in real life. "

    But how do people get addicted to things?  Do they just magically wake up addicted to drugs or cigarettes or porn or anything?  No, they become addicted by using those things.  Have you every heard of an alcoholic who had never had alcohol?  The connection I am making is that playing a pornographic game (porn is addictive) that contains sexual assault can lead people to follow that path that most addictions take (needing more to satisfy), and that that pattern, especially for those with other risk factors, can lead them to finding sexual assault acceptable, either by doing it themselves, or by not reacting when they know it has been done by others.


    "Murder is also very possible. Or stealing cars like in GTA. Wait, so if SA is happening to furry bunnies, it would be ok? It is a game! People know that they play a game. It is a bit condescending to only allow them to see the difference, if it is about Orcs, but not allow them to see the difference, if it is about regular humans."

    You didn't really demonstrate any problem with the point of realism being a factor.  Something being more realistic makes it easier to immerse yourself in that fantasy.  Being immersed in a fantasy about killing creatures that aren't real is one thing, being immersed in a fantasy about committing SA or a school shooting, like my point was talking about, is far worse.

    And no, sexually assaulting furry bunnies is gross and certainly not ok.


    "

    It is. But saying x10 much is easier as 1.34 / 41.8, and it catches more countries. Actual numbers are here https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country

    You can feed a lot of cultural and statistical bias into those numbers to even them out. But if video games about the crimes are relevant here, I would expect the numbers to be a lot closer together, or rather expect the Japanese number to be bigger and not to be x31 smaller. So I either accept that the video games are not relevant here, or I accept that it has the opposite effect of what you claim.

    I do not know the situaion in other countries in regards to the availablility of such video games. Are they very popular in Britain maybe, because they have more than double the amount than the US?

    "

    Anything you feed in is arbitrary though.  It's just what you decided to feed in.  You can't possibly accurately feed all the factors in.  Like I said, what about underreporting?  What about the fact that the west is much more open about sex?  What about the millions of other factors that determine the results that appear on that website?  Did you read the disclaimer on the site you linked to under the heading "The Challenge of Tracking Down Truthful Rape Statistics"?  That makes the point I am trying to make pretty well.  Given all those factors, it makes sense that the impact of video games would be present but not visible, like a drop of rain in the ocean during a hurricane.

    "No. It does not become normal in real life! It becomes a seen thing in such games. It's novelty bonus fades. It contributes less to the entertainment. "

    This goes back to what I said before.  What you do for entertainment is a part of your "real life", and it affects your perceptions and way of seeing the world.  It's not fake, you really did participate in that entertainment.  You are not a different person when you are entertaining yourself than you are elsewhere.


    "I am awaiting a link to something that would support that connection you try to establish. It did not work for fps games decades ago. And for SA specifically, the data contradicts the assertion. The place where those games are known to be readily available for adults has one of the lowest SA rates on the planet."

    I will provide a few resources here, but as I said before, I will not go back and forth playing the statistics game.  I do this so you see that there is support for out there for my link between using sexual assault for entertainment and accepting it in real life.  Remember that science and statistics cannot tell you if the results of playing this game are good or bad, it can only observe trends based on a limited set of variables.  We need to use our logic, common sense, and moral/ethical judgement to decide what to do with the trends that we pull out of them.  And, we can notice cause and effect using logic without some kind of scientific experiment.

    Nevertheless, here are some studies to show that there is scientific evidence supporting a link between sexualized video games and real-life sexual behavior, which leads naturally into my more specific claim about sexual assault:

    1. Effects of sexualized video games on online sexual harassment (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ab.21811)
    2. Playing a Videogame with a Sexualized Female Character Increases Adolescents' Rape Myth Acceptance and Tolerance Toward Sexual Harassment (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/g4h.2014.0055)
    3. Violence Against Women in Video Games: A Prequel or Sequel to Rape Myth Acceptance?(https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0886260512441078

    So there, you have some links to go through.  And I have already addressed your claim about Japan.  You cannot possibly accurately account for all the variables in national SA stats, therefore, your claim that the Japanese rape games have no impact (or no impact causing rates of SA to go up) on the SA stats relative to other countries has no compelling evidence to support it.

    Again, all these negative impacts of a SA game on the players are only part of the point.  The other part is again, that itchio is allowed to, and indeed is right in, removing this game from their site.


    One final thought.  This is a bit of an emotional argument, but I think it can tell us something.  I will assume you are a man.  Imagine yourself in this scenario:  Imagine you are someone who plays this game.  Now, imagine going to a woman close to you, like your mother, or girlfriend, or sister, etc. and trying to explain how you entertain yourself by playing a game where you sexually assault a woman.  A woman who, by what I've heard, is your stepmother.  Doesn't sound like a pleasant conversation.  She would likely feel disrespected, creeped out, disgusted, and, if she cares about you, would likely be quite worried about you.  And how would you feel doing it?  Would that not be awkward and shameful?  I think those natural emotions that every normal person would have should tell us something about how we should perceive a game like this, and whether we should play it.

    But I am not using the scientific method here because we are not conducting a scientific experiment, so no, this is not a hypothesis.

    You do not need to do "an experiment", to have a hypothesis. You claim something works a certain way. So you propose there is a mechanism at work. That is a hypothesis. No matter how you would call it.

    Are you proposing also, that your hypothetical mechanism is unique to the example at hand? If not, your mechanism should be at work at other situations. It is not evident to me, that this is so. So I recect your hypothetical mechanism. Psychology actually is a science. If that mechanism exists, maybe you can point me to an article explaining the mechanism. And real psychologists would have used scientific methods to study that mechanism, btw.

    I do not think this is how people are playing this game, and that you might be being a little intentionally obtuse.

    That is the thing. You only imagine how or why people play the game. And you base your reasoning based on that assumption. But ultimately you do not know. Actually, it does not even matter why or how they really play it. The mechanism you propose how that game existing and being played to do harm in the real world are just not true. This was debunked decades ago with the ego shooters.

    English is not my native language, so I am unsure what you mean with obtuse. If you mean playing dumb by it, no I am not playing dumb. You could not imagine a situation different from your assumptions, so I provided one when asked.

    I could even unfairly go further and unfoundedly proclaim that playing the game reduces SA crimes by a mechanims that I would proclaim does exist. And you could use my own arguments against me. Our assumptions about how this works and why people play it are assumptions. Basing calls for action on such assumptions is unsound. To not play the game myself, I do not need proof. To call for a platform or the government to ban it, I would want proof. Solid proof. It is too easy to just ban everything you do not like. And some people indeed try to do so. I am offended, therefore I am right, is a mentallity I despise.

    No one is snickering and laughing there way through this game because it is so absurd and amusing. How do you know? You can't know that.

    And no on is playing it to try to learn about how they would react in this real life situation. I did not claim that people are playing the game with that intention. You are misrepresenting what I wrote. You asked how a hypothetical mechanism to supress urges could work. And I outlined how you would mentally deal with such situations in a safe environment of playing a game. Like you can have an imaginary conversation while having a shower.

    So yeah, maybe they are playing it to masturbate, (which is also only an assumption), but they also might learn something about how they feel about a topic. And maybe confirm that they reject it in real life, but tolerate it in a fictional setting. (You asked for a mechanism. I provided one!). Oh, and about that assumption with the masturbation, they might also play the game to "preheat" with kinky fictional taboo things for the deed with their partner.

    catharsis theory. That would be therapy for those clinically disturbed people I specifically said I am not talking about. You proposed some sort of build up, where people playing the game would develop and increase an urge. Blowing off steam would mean to decrease the urge. Both mechanism are equally unfounded without further proof. They are claims being made. It might be so for some and completely different for others. It might even cancel out. Point is, your way of thinking is not the only possible way. You are not right, just because you came up with a mechanism that sounds plausible to you.

    But it has an effect of exacerbating those tastes particularly in those who already show tendencies toward violence. Unfounded. Cite proof for that mechanism. Or I can equally unfoundedly claim that it suppresses such tendencies. Playing games can decrease your stress. If you are stressed out, you might resort to violence if provoked. If your stress level is lower, that danger is lower. So playing games can lower violent behaviour. (The other half is, that playing games can also increase your stress. Overall I assume that the net effect is lowering stress, since it is a recreational activity. In other words, we would not do it, if it were not fun.)

     No, they become addicted by using those things.  Have you every heard of an alcoholic who had never had alcohol?  The connection I am making is that playing a pornographic game (porn is addictive) that contains sexual assault can lead people to follow that path that most addictions take (needing more to satisfy), and that that pattern

    That is not true. You need a thing that is addictive to begin with. Porn is not. Alcohol is. Trivially you can get addicted obsessed with anything. I want to try another absurdity argument. If porn is addictive, it stands to reason that sex is. So are married couples not actually in love with each other, but addicted to each other?

    So not only is your premise is wrong about games being addictve as such, but also your following mechanism of wanting more and more and mostly fallacious is the step you make into the real world. If someone would fall to obsession ("addiction") with playing porn games, they would want more games. Better games. Games that cater to their tastes better. Or play the game a lot. They would not suddenly being addicted to the things depicted in the game. Why should they? Where does this step in logic come from? It does not work that way! If you think so, find actual scientists that wrote about it. It would be hell of a feast for psychologists, if it were true. They would be famous for proving such a thing and all sorts of content restrictions could be made with scientific reasoning! Laws would be named after them.

    I will have to read your links at a later time as I have other things to attend to now.

    Your appeal to emotion at the end is what I am complaining about:

    Fiction is not reality, but it is easier to fight. Why fight how women are treated in certain countries, if you can have an easy win by bashing an adult game? Who would publicly proclaim to like and play the game? So, not much opposition to be expected and making the world better by bashing video games it is.

    Bashing the video games is not the solution to the world's problems. Bashing the real world liars that manipulate people might solve some problems. It sure would help if people look out for faulty reasoning and ask again and again. So much in real world actual news is based on one or another person in power telling the public bascially lies. And they believe it because of emotion or because it fits their personal views.


    Your first link is behind a paywall. And the abstract ist dubious. "After gameplay, they had the opportunity to sexually harass a male or a female partner by sending them sexist jokes." Sounds a lot like they were begging the question by setting people up to confirm their bias, by nudging the participants to do some sexual harrassments.

    Your second link is also behind a paywall. It is not relevant here. They studied minors for startes. The discussion at hand is about adults and adults only fictional entertainment. They talk about some rape myths in their abstract that were more accepted. Whatever accepted would mean and whatever selected myths they were using to tempt the 57 children after playing a selected educational game for 15 minutes loaded with sexual topics. 

    Your third link is again behind a paywall. It is vague about what was studied exactly, or how. Some rape myths again. It does not say which. Or how significant the result was. Significant in context only means that they think it was not due to chance.

    Those studies have nothing to do with your suspected mechanisms according to their abstract. They studied different things. From what I understand they basically showed people/children sexually loaded content. Not even actual adult games. And their findings would be, that the "acceptance" of rape myths would increase by an unknown amount. It was not big enough to brag about in the abstract. No headliner material, like: people are twice as likely to believe this sex myth, after playing a sexualized game.

    Also, would not sexually loaded advertismentents, tv shows, movies, books do exactly the same? Or for that matter, scantily clad real life women? I heard that one before, as it is used by some to justify forcing women to cover up. So men would not think about them and do bad things. I assert that if there is any such linkage of making men do/think bad things, it will be stronger with the actual women, than with pixel women in games. And I think that is actually one of those rape myths - that men that see such women are tempted and can't help it. Thinking about this, your point sounds like such a rape myth. That people are not to blame, but games are. Ban the games, so people are not corrupted anymore. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_myth That what the victim is wearing can lead to a sexual assault    That men are unable to control themselves once they become sexually excited  

    What you need to find is the spillover from fictional crime to real crime. You will not find that, because it has been debunked. And you can debunk it yourself by observing history and games and other media. A crime does neither become accepted by society, nor more common, just because there is media about it. Media has been around for a very long time, so there is "data" about it.

    Just let's look at a popular media, the bible. Let's look at the things that Lot guy has been up to. Like offering his virgin daughters to a mob to have sex with. Or drunkenly fathering children with his daughters later. As for rape myths and rape, that book is full of those. If you want to ban media because it corrupts people by having certain content in it, start with the bible.

    That was another attempt to show you the absurdity of your logic. If it were sound, you could apply it to other media and other crimes. Including the bible. But it is not sound. Watching a show about murder does not make you a murderer. Playing a game about sa, does not make you commit sa. And reading the bible does not make daughters have sex with their fathers to have children.

    Nevertheless, here are some studies to show that there is scientific evidence supporting a link between sexualized video games and real-life sexual behavior, which leads naturally into my more specific claim about sexual assault

    This is a misrepresnation of what the studies claim to show. They do not show sexual behaviour change. Not even regular behaviour change. They did not look at behaviour at all. You do know they had children as participants in one of those studies?! And you go here and claim the studies showed sexual behavior change. What they did claim to show, that some participants answered a question about some "rape myths" with more "acceptance", after they had them engage with sexualized games.

    And no, there is no natural progression from one thing to another. You try to invoke a slippery slope from fictional content to real life behavioural change towards imitating the crimes. But this is a fallacy, because there is no proof of mechanism for this. You would find a lot more studies and even meta studies about this. And better studies. With a lower p value than 0.04. Which they did with 57 12+ year old impressionable kids. The barrier is 0.05 to be even worth reading at all. So with the most impressionable participants, I would expect a lot higher confidence that there even is a mechanism. Oh, and the mechanism they would have shown, would only be: show kids near naked ladies in a game, and they are slightly more prone to believe cherry picked rape myths. Probably the ones about clothing.

    As I said, this line of thought was tried decades ago with the ego shooters. They do not make players into killers. And now people come along and claim that playing a game about sexual taboos and crimes make the players into perpetrators of such things. If this mechanism were true, we should ban the Bible first - and people did and do kill and do other bad things, by justifying it with that book, so there is that.

    (3 edits) (+1)

    The main issue honestly is that murder isn't seen as normal in society. You don't usually joke about murder. SA, specifically the SA of women, is normalized to the point we as a society ask "well, what was she wearing?" or "she was drunk, what did she expect to happen?" Walk up to a random guy on the street, crack a joke about  spiking women's drinks or about how it's "their" fault they get assaulted, seven out of ten times, you'll get a laugh. The other two, you may get a look but he still won't tell you that you're wrong for it. He won't speak up. He just won't laugh. Additionally, why are we defending a rape fantasy game anwyay? Matter of fact, why are we defending rape as a sexual fantasy? Fantasy or no it is morally reprehensible to want to do that in any capacity, regardless of whether or not you actually do it. People will dog on me for this, but if you fantasize about raping people, yes I think you're either a sex/porn addict or a horrible fucking person and should see a psychiatrist either way. 

    Honestly this whole discussion goes from a wrong foot.
    Our society is complex and diverse. There are different opinions and desires. 
    For example, some people are gay. 
    Being like that some time ago was forbidden, and it is still can not be tolerated by many people.
    Because of that we accumulated huge amount of data on suppression of homosexuality.
    Results where... that it dose not work that way.
    Even voluntary attempts to twists themselves can't be considered safe.
    Especially if it is only voluntary on paper, but I digress,

    Ethics are human made. It is not a proven fact, but it is neither disproven as can not be proven that all swans are white.
    Still, it is not as important, as humans generally do not act ethically,

    If ethics are human made, then what right and wrong is also decided by people.
    From fundamental perspective, in society that is all about fighting, and honourable duels to death are the norm.
    In there, Murder in a duel is nor wrong, rather it can mean eternal glory.

    It also matches the idea that homosexuality passed from forbidden into allowed.
    As if there was any higher logic behind that, it would not be possible.

    Now... we are kind of in a pickle?
    On one side we have our nice and good taboos.
    And on the other there a bunch of people who seems strange angry we forbid them.

    Lets exterminate them! And that's how fascism is born. In its idea, it is 'genius'
    I mean you don't see any Homo habilis around. And they where sort-of smarter.

    Anyway, fascists lost, so maybe not that good of an idea, especially if you against the whole world. or was it the execution? We will return to that later.


    Anyway, we decided that extermination of everyone you don't agree with is as horrible of idea as it is. 
    There also was nuclear bomb that mean they will take you into the grave, but it is not important.

    Therefore - humanism was born.
    Or well not really, it is a really old idea and all. But Human rights we know were formed there.
    number 30 is literally  "No use of rights to destroy others' rights" by the way.

    There a lot of great stuff there, and it would been the best law ever, it it had anyone to punish those who break it.

    And so, we decided that people have rights, and so we can't kill them if we disagree with them.
    And so for many things taboos were lifted. Women have rights, gay have rights. At least in some parts of the world.

    Still some things are not like that, murder is not allowed, regardless was it honourable duel or not.
    Same with incest, and other things. The reason is very simple and obvious - it harms people!
    It is very easy and simple decision, right? Actually... it is not. Even here we stumble on the fact that in general, if both duellists do agree, it dose not harms anyone who not gave consent. And Incest fundamentally harms only children because of higher chance of generic defects/

    So okay, lets not talk about that. Lets talk about rape. Because there, it is definitely harms another person. I feel like more damage is from social stigma. then the fact itself, but that is a useless exercise. Rape is bad!

    Sooo, rape is bad case closed!
    But what about the books?
    Well, it is quite obvious. Who do they harm? No one. Well, they can harm a former victim, so it is probably a good idea to mandate a warning. But regardless. 

    You said that "the idea of "blowing off steam" to suppress desires has been accepted as false"
    It is indeed true. Catharsis dose not work long term, providing only temporary relive and possible making desire worse long term.
    And reading something about rape, or playing it, theoretically can cause someone to accept it more.

    But, But

    Our society work from "Presumption of innocence principle" it is known part of legal system, but it is way more important outside the court.
    You can go and buy a knife. You can then take that knife and murder anyone.
    Should have you been arrested for buying a knife? - No.

    It is true that reactive law enforcement is not efficient.
    How many criminals could we catch if police had freedom to do whatever they deem necessary!
    Lets start from small, anyone can be arrested. 
    All internet is surveyed, and if you do something illegal you can be investigated.  
    There is a social score system, and if yours are low you can be restricted in actions. 
    If your crimes deemed severe enough, death penalty is possible.  
    That all is real, from China by the way. 

    So maybe it is not that good. That's why "Presumption of innocence" is so important,
    Unless you committed a crime and it can be proven, you can't be arrested. 

    Now back to our books. Book about evil, can indeed make someone to enact something evil.
    Be it because he always wanted to do that, because it acted as a trigger or an instruction or... just because.
    But it is not punishable, because it can be used in opposite direction to instead of enacting desire to go on a murder spree, to swear in chat and act like a troll. And while it is true that it will not magical solve the problem, and provides only a temporary relief. If there enough content, it is not impossible to live your life without breaking.

    Even if suppression is purely voluntary, as was tested on people who tried to not be homosexual, it lead to depression, breakdowns, and a chance to crack, and either decides to finish with life, or do something forbidden.
    In the best case, it forms cognitive dissonance that leads to Anxiety and so on.
    Of course some people have stronger will, or simply a weaker desire.
    In the end, it is fundamentally impossible to satisfy both the sheep and wolf.
    But if we can't kill the wolf, feeding it and making into a dog, is the best option.



    Of course, there is a small problem to all of this.
    If we look into what actually happening, society rears its ugly head. Who cares about book?
    For some reason no one. Who cares about such a nish book? even less people. 
    Who wants to feel good for free, and like they done something good and moral?
    Everyone. And in our society it works not by who is right. But who has more votes.

    I could've finished it there, but there another small part I have promised you
    Do you remember I said that it is irrelevant as no one cares about ethics? 

    Well, all that stuff about how great human rights are, and all that. Some people do not believe in that. 
    What do they believe...  Well it is that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. 
    The problem is that they are not killing enough people. 
    What they are doing instead, is slowly doing more and more absurd crimes to make people used to it. 
    And it starts with innocent claims that "We need to protect our children" 
    It may seems good, or not bad. I mean is children, right? we are all adults. Who cares if children are not allowed something!
    But actually it slowly dissolves the foundation  after all children are humans too. and by taking rights of children... 
    Then slowly take rights of adults. it is still in the name of children of course.

    --- 
    After word

    It is a nekropost, but it is also not one, because of reascent events. It is literally so ironically fitting, that I am lost for words, First the targeted games, now they order whole websites. I am wondering what's next, as hope is nowhere to be seen.

    I wanted to say more, like explain why alcohol is allowed or why they see problem with gambling in the wrong place.
    But really. Evil for one can be good for another. If we are good humans who are tolerant and reasonable please remember that


      


    that is a lot of words to be wrong

    (+2)

    ut do you seriously believe that someone who fantasizes about sexual assault (and is aroused by it) is less likely to actually do it than someone who doesn't???

    you you can't. the science is clear on that. and you have no issue with GTA V or Mortal Kombat. anyone agreeing with you is bad. 

    a facist lite. these are your thoutgs. this was a visual novel. not a "simulator". 

    (+1)

    I don't really care if it was a visual novel or a simulator.  The point still stands

    (+1)

    your point Falls. You never had a point other than to complain and fear Monger like the extremists. There is no proof that porn inside violence especially of this violent nature.


    https://www.woodhullfoundation.org/fact-checked/porn-does-not-incite-violence/


    In fact it's quite the opposite. Your argument is the same as not wanting violence and video games. Dead by daylight Grand Theft Auto Call of Duty all glorify violence. By your logic this turns people into sociopaths and murderers. You need to be gone

    (+1)

    Yes, they won't abstain from that addiction, which is exactly why we...shouldn't encourage it? There's direct correlation in psychology between people engaging in these hardcore rape fantasy/fetish content things and actually committing the act later down the line, which is why this can't be compared to violent games, because there is no correlation there. People don't commit violence in games because they want to do it in real life. People *do* engage with rape content in games *because* they want to do it in real life but *can't* without consequences.

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (1 edit) (+1)

    I feel you're honestly not arguing in good faith because you yourself enjoy these fantasies and feel called out for furthering this desire. If you can't bring yourself to actually listen without regurgitating the same bullshit point over and over, there's no point in anyone wasting their breath on you. Have the day you deserve.

    (+1)

    they're absolutely is not. It is very much the opposite

    People like you that exist are causing harm. You have internalized alt right rhetoric

    https://www.woodhullfoundation.org/fact-checked/porn-does-not-incite-violence/

    (+2)

    by law. it is speech. protected. 

    that is objectively incorrect. 

    (+1)

    porn is prostitution, sex in exchange for money, which is illegal (at least in the US).   If porn is speech, what is it saying?  What thoughts, facts, and/or opinions is it sharing?

    Do you actually think it was illegal for them to remove this game?

    (+1)
    porn is prostitution, sex in exchange for money, which is illegal (at least in the US)

    Uhm. Sex in exchange for money. So ... marriage is also illegal? There must be money involved, otherwise there would not be payments after a divorce. Money is involved in there and refusing to have sex is grounds for a divorce.

    Porn is not prostituion. Prostituion is a service that involves actual sexual services (in the flesh, literally). Porn is short for pornography, which is the depiction of sex.

    We could even argue about, if depiction of non real people does even qualify for being porn. It is artificial pixels. Drawings. Renderings. Not real. It is not porn, it is a drawing of porn. Same as porn is not sex, it is a depiction of sex. Porn is once removed from the deed. Cartoon porn is twice removed from the deed. And prosition is the deed (with the special case that it is in exchange for money).

    If porn is speech

    It trivally is not. But in that one country where free speech is a thing, it is considered so. There is no dispute about that. But that one country also has those ridiculous obscenity laws which circumvent the free speech by very vague and arbitrary conditions.

    Do you actually think it was illegal for them to remove this game?

    Legality does not come into this. A platform can remove anything for any or no reason.

    It is about how a group imposes their agenda by bullying, threats, lies and other questionable methods. Platforms rather take a thing down than deal with that.

    I do not believe it is good for society to listen to such emotional manipulators. They rile up an angry mob and steer it. The game itself is not illegal*. The content might be disgusting to many. So what. Taste is individual and what one adult views as entertaining is not the business of another adult. What fictional things are "allowed" and which are not should not be subject to the moods of angry people. If we want to have free speech and things like that, we must allow all of it. Not only the things we deem appropriate.

    *There is dispute worldwide what constitutes illegal. It gets ridiculous if you step back and remember that it is fiction and some fictional things are illegal in some countries and legal in most others. Even adult games themselves are illegal in some places.

    (+1)

    "Uhm. Sex in exchange for money. So ... marriage is also illegal? There must be money involved, otherwise there would not be payments after a divorce. Money is involved in there and refusing to have sex is grounds for a divorce."

    Firstly, in porn, people are being paid to have sex.  In the case of porn, there just happens to be a camera present to capture a video.  Why would the presence of a recording device suddenly make the word prostitution not apply?

    Secondly. if this is your view of marriage, then it is a sad view indeed, and an insulting one to the many happily married couples throughout the world who have a relationship built on more than mere sexual transaction.  Marriage is far more than a simple sex-for-money exchange.  It is about companionship and support, and creating a loving environment for all members of the family.  Or at least it is meant to be, though I will admit in many cases sex and money become points that can destroy a marriage.  But all of those things are lacking from both porn and prostitution.  Again, if this is your view of marriage, I pray that one day you would see the light, because a good marriage is to porn what a star is to a piece of gum stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

    As for cartoon porn, I would not dispute that it is "further away" from the real act of sex than live action porn.  Sure, it is a drawing of sex.  That doesn't make much difference to me.  I would find a drawing of sexual assault in poor taste.  I would find a real photo of it in even poorer taste.  I would find either one in such poor taste, in fact, that I would remove it from my website if anyone posted it there.  And that is my main point: that it was fair for itchio to remove the game.  


    I asked the question about legality in response to the rant from OP which seemed to insinuate that the removal of this game from itchio was an act of censorship.  I do not think it was, because I do not believe porn to be a form of protected speech.  Or if it is under legal definitions, I don't think it should be.  What idea is it expressing?  To protect porn as speech could mean that a platform owner could get into legal trouble for removing it (in theory at least).  It seems like madness to prevent a platform from removing porn because of free speech.


    "The content might be disgusting to many. So what. Taste is individual and what one adult views as entertaining is not the business of another adult. What fictional things are "allowed" and which are not should not be subject to the moods of angry people. If we want to have free speech and things like that, we must allow all of it. Not only the things we deem appropriate."

    No reasonable person truly believes this absolutely.  When things "one adult views as entertaining" cross certain lines, they drop this line of thinking.  CSAM, for instance.  I'm sure you wouldn't say "So what" to that.  My point is not that this game and CSAM are exactly equivalent, and it is definitely not to suggest that by supporting this game you support CSAM.  The point is that we can't allow everyone unfettered access to anything they find entertaining under this false guise of "free speech".

    Deleted 136 days ago
    (+1)

    I am glad you see where I am coming from, and I hope the conversation has been helpful to you.

    I think I understand and can see your perspective and those of the people who might disagree with me in this debate.  I just don't agree with their conclusions about this particular piece of media.

    (+1)

    You likened porn to prostituion with a money angle. I made a money angle about another thing that involves sex as an attempt to show the absurdity and not to show off my view on marriage or any such things.

    Porn is porn, no matter if money is involved. A married couple doing an amateur video is neither paid for the deed nor is the deed something they would only do because of the camera. The video of it, it is still porn. Even if they show it to no one.

    Prostitution is prostitution, even if no money was involved or if the non paid participant is not the payer. You could compensate the prostitute by non money gifts or favors or someone else could pay for you.

    All quite semantical, so it depends on which definition you use, which kind of semantical stretchings you can use to connect those two. Becomes a prostitute a porn actress the moment her client pays to film the deed and publish it for money? Maybe. But porn actors do not suddenly become prostitutes, just because they get paid. And neither does the film producer become the client by paying.

    You seem to misunderstand free speech. Free speech does not mean a platform has to allow "your speech". It means that the government cannot place legal restraints on it. In case of porn it means, the government cannot directly forbid porn itself.

    To protect porn as speech could mean that a platform owner could get into legal trouble for removing it (in theory at least).  It seems like madness to prevent a platform from removing porn because of free speech.

    Your premise is wrong. Please read this https://www.accessiblelaw.untdallas.edu/post/the-limits-of-free-speech-in-social...

    In short social media companies are not state actors and their platforms are not public forums, and therefore they are not subject to the free speech protections

    No reasonable person truly believes this absolutely.

    I might stress that we are talking about fiction. We are not talking about someone expressing their free speech protected opinion that crime x should be not a crime. We are talking about taboos and crimes in a fictional work.

    And yes, I absolutely believe that it is not your business or mine to restrict what fiction adults can read/play/watch for recreational purposes. Or to restrict what fiction can exist. It is fiction. That means not real.

    Quite a jump to involve csam and proclaiming that non fictional material of real crimes and a game about fictional events with artificial graphics are "exactly equivalent". You are formally wrong. For that, mostly this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence , but this whole issue is about fallacies used by the manipulators to rile up an angry mob to ban games they dislike. They dislike it. Ok. But they do not argue soundly to try to ban it - because they legally can't. It is fiction and even protected by free speech. So they bully platforms and rile up angry mobs.

    To summarize, yeah, that game is not really good taste, because of certain topics. But it is fiction and any discussion about banning it for adults should end right there. The fact that bullying was needed to ban it, should make you think. It says poor things about how society can easily be manipulated. A far greater danger than any imaginary threats of fictional content. There are real world people in power that use those tactics of bullying and making unsound arguments to get their way. But hey, activists are distracted banning games, so they need not fight those real world bads.

    I think I will probably reply to each of your points once more, and then leave the last word to you if you want it.

    "You likened porn to prostitution with a money angle. I made a money angle about another thing that involves sex as an attempt to show the absurdity and not to show off my view on marriage or any such things.

    Porn is porn, no matter if money is involved. A married couple doing an amateur video is neither paid for the deed nor is the deed something they would only do because of the camera. The video of it, it is still porn. Even if they show it to no one.

    Prostitution is prostitution, even if no money was involved or if the non paid participant is not the payer. You could compensate the prostitute by non money gifts or favors or someone else could pay for you.

    All quite semantical, so it depends on which definition you use, which kind of semantical stretchings you can use to connect those two. Becomes a prostitute a porn actress the moment her client pays to film the deed and publish it for money? Maybe. But porn actors do not suddenly become prostitutes, just because they get paid. And neither does the film producer become the client by paying.

    "

    But that attempt to demonstrate the absurdity is built on a false equivalence.   My point in defining marriage was to show that marriage is not at all similar to prostitution, in spite of the fact that both sex and money are involved in both.  Because of that, you haven't demonstrated any absurdity in my likening of prostitution to pornography by likening marriage to prostitution.

    We might say that prostitution is merely the exchange of money for sex.  Porn, in most cases, is the exchange of payment for sex, with the added presence of a camera.  Marriage, meanwhile, is all the things I described in my previous post, and more.  Sure, you might say that every film of two people having sex doesn't involve the exchange of money.  Fine, but most modern pornography that is produced by the porn industry and is consumed by people does, and this is what I have been referring to when I draw the comparison between prostitution and porn.

    And if you are paid in other ways that aren't money, you are still getting paid for sex.  Money, after all, is a medium of exchange that we use to obtain other things that we want.  So even if you can find certain porn films that didn't involve someone getting paid to have sex on camera, huge swaths of the porn industry are just that.  That is why porn is infinitely closer to prostitution than it is to marriage, AND why I think it should fall under prostitution law as opposed to being protected as speech.

    And finally, I do think that by being in a porn film (porn referring to the porn industry, companies that pay people to appear in their films, not a married couple's sex tape), a woman (or man) becomes a prostitute.  She is getting paid to have sex with someone.  I hold to my definition in this case.


    "

    You seem to misunderstand free speech. Free speech does not mean a platform has to allow "your speech". It means that the government cannot place legal restraints on it. In case of porn it means, the government cannot directly forbid porn itself.

    To protect porn as speech could mean that a platform owner could get into legal trouble for removing it (in theory at least).  It seems like madness to prevent a platform from removing porn because of free speech.

    Your premise is wrong. Please read this https://www.accessiblelaw.untdallas.edu/post/the-limits-of-free-speech-in-social...

    In short social media companies are not state actors and their platforms are not public forums, and therefore they are not subject to the free speech protections

    "

    This is actually the point I was trying to make.  I was replying to someone who seemed to think itchio's removal of the game was an act of censorship, which would indicate that they might think it was a violation of free speech.  I was explaining to that person why I don't think it was a violation in that quotation using a hypothetical.  Which, by the way, is my main point in this whole debate: that Itchio is allowed to remove something like that.  The rest of the debate (about growing desire, etc.) has been why I think it is good that they did it.


    "

    No reasonable person truly believes this absolutely.

    I might stress that we are talking about fiction. We are not talking about someone expressing their free speech protected opinion that crime x should be not a crime. We are talking about taboos and crimes in a fictional work.

    And yes, I absolutely believe that it is not your business or mine to restrict what fiction adults can read/play/watch for recreational purposes. Or to restrict what fiction can exist. It is fiction. That means not real.

    "

    This circles the wagon back to the point I made elsewhere on this message board: that the fiction you indulge in affects the way you act in real life.  And that willingly engaging in fiction that promotes a certain thing is an implicit endorsement of that thing.  It will affect different people to varying degrees for some people, sure.  But although it is fiction, it has real-world consequences.

    Additionally, certain kinds of fiction are objectionable.  Such as fiction that depicts child abuse, or that enables you to pretend to commit a school shooting, or that enables you to pretend to sexually assault someone.  I don't think it unreasonable for people to express outrage over such fiction, and to petition platforms not to list it.  It is reasonable for people to object to living in a community where their neighbors entertain themselves by pretending to engage in violent sex with fictional people who are designed to be similar to their mothers, daughters, wives, and other loved ones.


    "Quite a jump to involve csam and proclaiming that non fictional material of real crimes and a game about fictional events with artificial graphics are "exactly equivalent". You are formally wrong. For that, mostly this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence , but this whole issue is about fallacies used by the manipulators to rile up an angry mob to ban games they dislike. They dislike it. Ok. But they do not argue soundly to try to ban it - because they legally can't. It is fiction and even protected by free speech. So they bully platforms and rile up angry mobs."

    I will choose to believe you didn't put quotes around "exactly equivalent" in bad faith.  If you read the full sentence, you would see that I literally said: "My point is not that this game and CSAM are exactly equivalent..."  The point was in your "So what." response to content that many would consider disgusting, you indicate that we have to allow basically all forms of fictional entertainment.  In fact, you explicitly said that we must allow all of it (it being "fictional things").  So, by your logic, you would have to say "so what" to people playing (excuse my language) "Baby R@pe Simulator 4" and other extremely objectionable content like that.  I don't think we have to do that.


    "To summarize, yeah, that game is not really good taste, because of certain topics. But it is fiction and any discussion about banning it for adults should end right there. The fact that bullying was needed to ban it, should make you think. It says poor things about how society can easily be manipulated. A far greater danger than any imaginary threats of fictional content. There are real world people in power that use those tactics of bullying and making unsound arguments to get their way. But hey, activists are distracted banning games, so they need not fight those real world bads."

    Well, I'm glad you find the game not in good taste.  

    What you call bullying, I might call people expressing their opinions about something they find objectionable in an effort to persuade a platform to delist the thing the find objectionable.  Which is really just a culture banning objectionable things from polite society.

    I disagree that the discussion should automatically end with the medium being fiction for all the reasons I have mentioned throughout this thread.

    Finally, pointing at all the "real world bads" and telling people to focus on that instead seems like a distraction to prevent anything from being done about something bad that we can immediately do something about.  It's like if you want to smooth out your back yard, but someone says "why are you bothering to fill in that smaller hole, when you have this much bigger hole over here?"  But my yard can never be truly smooth until the small hole is filled in, and it is much easier to start by filling in the smaller one.

    (+1)
    But that attempt to demonstrate the absurdity is built on a false equivalence.

    That was the point. You did the same absurdity. Do you not realize that? You took one shared attribute and proceeded to call two different things the same. 

    You can think what you want, but if you argue your points unsoundly, you are formally wrong. It does not even matter if your opinion has any merit. 

    back to the point I made elsewhere on this message board: that the fiction you indulge in affects the way you act in real life

    Which is only trivially true. You argue that it promotes doing the virutal thing in real life. Which is not true according to current scientific consens.

    I will choose to believe you didn't put quotes around "exactly equivalent" in bad faith. 

    Apologies here. You only likened them to each other enough to call for action and I misread the statement.

    And yes, there is no appropriate clause. No exceptions. If you want free speech, it means all of it. Not only the ones you think are appropriate. Things change with time and place and trends. Views on lgbt changed several times in my lifetime as an example.

    The thing is, Itch is a platform that has content for adults. It might be prudent to call for Itch to have better content filter options, as they only have adult yes or no. I would place most horror into adult. And some of the adult content here would be 16+/12+ in other countries. Opinions differ. And even for adult content a more granular content filter would be appreciated.

    I value freedom, and I detest if an angry mob tries to decide what is ok for adults to play. It is belittling. It reminds of a thought police.

    And as an adult I can decide for myself which games to play or not play and what content to experience. Hearing unsound arguments why I should not have that choice or why a particular thing is bad, irritates me. If those arguments against content would turn out to be true, it will sooner or later hit things you or I actually do enjoy. Like Dexter. It is a tv show where the hero is a literal serial killer. Accepting your line of thought would mean to accept that I will become a serial killer. I reject that. And your unsound arguments make that easy. Since you have wrong premises and use fallacies, your line of thought is very probably wrong, and I can rest assured to not become a serial killer.

    Taboo things and crimes and violence make fascinating entertainment. That's all there is to it. Banning fiction is not gonna make the world better. But allowing to ban fiction is making the world worse. That is how I see it. And I do see people rise in power by lying and manipulating emotions. I want less of that and more sound discussions. You can convinve me to not play the game and understand why you would not play it or recommend to not play it, but you could not convince me to think it is a good thing to allow banning it. 

    Thank you for not getting personal.

    (+2)

    Well, you are welcome.  I can't say I agree with some of your arguments, or your conclusion, but thank you for your civility as well.

    I do not think that please you are very much a pest.

    (+1)

    Not all speech is protected under US law, especially not in spaces owned by private companies where they can remove whatever they like. The point of freedom of speech is freedom of speech against the government. Nothing more.

    (+1)

    Why would you want to play a rape fantasy game? Why would you want to make a rape fantasy game?

    (+3)
    You don't usually joke about murder

    But ... we do. All the time. If you are late one more time, I am killing you! 

    Regarding sa, the people riled up about a game with that content are actually perpetuating rape myths. Specifially the one where men can't control themselves after being excited. So they argue to do away with the excitement. Like tempting women or tempting video games.

    Crimes, including sa, are not increased by playing fictional games about them. That was tried again and again to be proven. For about 50 years. Ask an AI about the current science conclusion about this topic. Summarazing such things is a thing they are good at. And one would think that after 50 years of studying the bad influence of video games, they would have found something robust to argue with.

    Additionally, why are we defending a rape fantasy game anwyay?

    Because the type of content is not relevant. It is fiction. You do not like that content. That is your right. But you have no right to ban fiction, just because you do not like it.

    To ban adult entertainment, fictional content I might stress, you would need a reason that is more than dislike or disgust. And you do not have that. So all you people do ist rant and get emotional about the thing. The fictional thing. For untrue reasons. Direct your concern to real problems, not fictional problems. Don't fight windmills.

    The question to ask is, why was this game attacked anyway? Because it is an easy victory, is my opinion. Exactly what you say, who would defend it? Bully game platforms like Steam, that previously did not see a problem with it, and show your followers that you have power. Power to take down those nasty games. It is not about protecting society by removing one nieche game. It is about power, about getting an audience. Some activists might even genuinly believe in what they do. But ultimately they engage in an activity that has no benefit for society, but makes them feel good. They have achived something. They fought the good fight. A fight against ... fiction? Success guranteed, because who dares defend such a game. It has incest too, so bonus points for making the world better.

    but if you fantasize about raping people

    The problem with that statement is, that you assume that someone playing such a game does fantasize about this. I do not fantasize about murdering people, when I play Counterstrike. Do you? I hope not.

    Why would you want to play a rape fantasy game? Why would you want to make a rape fantasy game?

    Because it is forbidden in real life. A game about collecting stamps would be rather boring. A game about stealing stamps from rivals would be more interesting. 

    It is a game mechanic. A plot device. A narrative element. Fuel for drama and tension. A taboo topic to make it exciting.

    But you act like it is a training simulation to prepare for the real deal. Evident by how you call it. "rape fantasy game". If that is a rape-fantasy game, than Counterstrike is a murder-fantasy game. And GTA is a criminal-fantasy game.

    Ever saw the tv series Dexter? Why are people rooting for a serial killer? It is fiction! Interesting fiction. 

    and, yes, more likely to commit the act than someone who doesn't.

    50 years of research could not prove a causal connection. Research of sa and adult games specifcally did not change that finding. But of course you are right, because ... reasons.

    Summary from an AI:

    What is the current scientific consensus about the relation of depiction of crimes in video games and players commiting those crimes in real life?

    tl;dr None. "No Causal Link Between Video Game Violence and Real-World Violence"

    Is the scientifc consensus different for pornographic games that feature sexual assault?

    tl;dr Still none. Researchers are worried, but "causality remains unproven: there is no definitive evidence that playing these games leads to actual sexual violence."

    You need to prove the spill over from fiction to reality to have a case. This could not be proven for decades. No one would have cared for yet another incest game. That topic is under attack too, btw. Under the agenda of places like Patreon it is forbidden. And people seem to have lewd thoughs about that topic all the time, if you look at the statistics of actual porn sites. We "fantasize" about forbidden and taboo things all the time. But we do not act on them, just because we imagine such situations. I am under the impression that you people use the word fantasize as a verb describing to train mentally for doing it for real. That is not what people do when playing games. We know that we play a game and that it is not real, and that the depicted things and things we could do and experience there are "a fantasy" and not training grounds.

    (11 edits) (+1)

    You know who does have the right to censor that fiction? A site owned by a private company who gets to dictate what is and isn't allowed on that site. Freedom of speech, also, doesn't mean you can say or do whatever the fuck you want. It protects speech against the government, not hate speech, threats, or condoning horrific acts just because it's fiction. The type of content IS relevant because you are feeding a sexual desire you KNOW is immoral and taboo, and the second that the game stops being enough to cause pleasure, people may not commit the act themselves, but are more likely to seek out porn of people who actually did the act and recorded doing it, which also is very immoral to consume. God forbid people tell you that some rape porn game is morally repulsive. I'm going to be honest, I don't care if it makes you do it in real life, I still think you're a horrible fucking person if you're jerking it to the idea of raping someone. And let's be honest, you as a person don't care if people joke about murder or rape, which is why you're talking right now. At least with murder victims people don't say "well it's their fault for having their door unlocked" or "they secretly wanted it!" And violent games aren't made with the intention of being gooner content or to fulfill a fantasy. People don't play violent games because they have fantasies of being violent. People play games like No Mercy because they have rape fantasies and think it's hot. Which is morally fucking reprehensible that you'd be sexually appealed to the idea of doing that to someone,  fantasizing of taking away ever bit of autonomy they have and scarring them for life for your fucking wank with the excuse of "it's just fiction!" Sure the media itself isn't the worst thing ever, but whoever is jerking to it is a horrible person and nothing you say will change my mind on that. I've tried to give reasons but no reason is valid to you because you are too worried about having your immoral rape fap material.

    We live in a society where rape is normalized. We blame the victim. We don't blame murder victims. We say "they wanted it" when it's rape. Games like GTA shouldn't be banned because violence is part of a narrative with context, choices, and social criticism. On the other hand, titles like the banned No Mercy feature gratuitous violence, without plot or purpose, often glorifying suffering, especially against women. The difference lies in how violence is used: meaningfully or just for shock value.

    edit: the dude calling me a fascist for not supporting rape fantasy games is also literally harassing me outside of this post. just fyi. But I'm the "insane" one for having an opinion. also, me liking the concept of vampires has nothing to do with whether I'm okay with rape fantasy games? and seduction =/= rape, but my vamp game doesn't involve that...lol? also accusing me of literally not being human for having vampire in my name is wild, are you on fucking drugs? The concept of vampires isn't explicitly around rape, and even in vamp media that involves it, it isn't portrayed as desirable or a good thing, they're LITERALLY MONSTERS. THEY ARE THE OG BAD GUYS LMAO. My vamp game involves explicit consent, the vampires themselves are just PLOT important. It's a comedy visual novel, it's not comparable to your rape porn where you rape your own mother.

    they have the right but that doesn't make it okay or right or you're absolute yammering to be correct. You are absolutely Incorrect and frankly insulting to abuse victims

    we have never lived in a society where rape is normalized. You are absolutely brainwashed by far left and Far Right rhetoric. The kinds of people that now ban are actually extremist groups of a religious source. That are anti-lgbt that's exactly why this happens. Why do you hate us?

    That person with vampire and their name is not human. It does not have reasoning capabilities

    (+1)

    I don't but that is not up to me. Why would you want to have vampires? Their entire aesthetic is abuse and seduction and hypnosis of non-consent. I can make that silly argument right out of the air just as you make yours.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/technology/4424581-is-pornography-really-warping-our-brains-or-is-it-a-moral-panic/amp/

    https://www.woodhullfoundation.org/fact-checked/porn-does-not-incite-violence/

    (+3)
    I don't care if it makes you do it in real life

    I do.

    You want something done for reasons that are not true or are not relevant. That I care for. If you take those fallacious reasons away, you just try to impose your morals onto other people, which would not be relevant. We are still talking about fiction. But you seem to not make a difference. We can't just ban everything that someone is offended about.

    As a society we do not even ban real things like alcohol or tobacco. Things that are proven to be harmful and addictive. Yet you want to remove a thing that is neither and fictional on top. Because you think it is disgusting and morally wrong and whatnot. The fiction about it! There is no discussion about the real thing being quite bad. But you seem to conflate those two. And you seem to make inferences about what fictional things someone finds entertaining to what kind of person that is. This is rather arrogant. I like Dexter. A show about a serial killer as the protagonist. A lot of people love the show Breaking Bad. The hero creates drugs and does a lot of bad things. What is your opinion about all those people liking things that are very bad?! Sorry, liking fiction about things that are very bad.

    Please get this in your head. Fiction is fiction. We like fiction. We like fiction about forbidden things. If a woman reads rape fantasy smut novels, it does not mean she wants to get raped. And if someone plays a rape fantasy game, it does not mean they want to rape someone.

    You seem to think otherwise. If so, you are wrong.

    We live in a society where rape is normalized.

    Not to my observation. Quite the contrary.

    Ask the AI of your choice for a summary. I asked the big one this:

    How did the acceptance of rape in the last 70 years change over time? Did it change? Was it normalized?

    It gave a nice summary and gave corner stones per decade what changed. Especially the rape in marriage changed a lot. For the "normalization" it said:

    Has It Been Normalized?

    Historically: Yes, rape was often normalized—especially in marriage, war, and patriarchal cultures.

    Today: It is much less accepted, but rape culture (jokes, victim-blaming, minimization) still exists in many places.

    Progress: There's been major progress in awareness, advocacy, and laws. But social and legal change is uneven globally.

    So if you think rape is normalized where you live, maybe fight that, instead of fiction. There are places that make worrying news sometimes.

    (+7)

    That is sad you have to deal with censorship over your artistic expression. Here is my favorite quote about what your going through, it has always helped me when I felt suppressed. 

    “Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.”  ― Mark Twain

    This isn't censorship. It's a privately owned website. They can remove it for any reason, including not liking the color of your shirt. On uploading to a website, you have no rights.

    it absolutely is de facto censorship. Your education has failed you

    it absolutely is by de facto censorship. It is entirely legal content and your supposition that problematic fantasy causes problematic real life harm is not only disgusting but an offense to all those who've had to suffer.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/technology/4424581-is-pornography-really-warping-our-brains-or-is-it-a-moral-panic/amp/

    (+3)

    https://steamcommunity.com/games/3299570/announcements/detail/588390482275467288

    An interesting read from the developer of the game. It is a bit long. In short, they were bullied with false allegations and decided to just withdraw the game.

    At this point, the game has been blocked in 3 countries—Australia, Canada, and the UK. We don't intend to fight the whole world, and specifically, we don't want to cause any problems for Steam and Valve. They do a great job and are incredibly helpful.

    If after reading the above, you still believe that such a game should not have been created, then we sincerely apologize to you. At the same time, we would like you to be a bit more open to human fetishes that don't harm anyone, even though they may seem disgusting to you. This is still just a game, and although many people are trying to make it into something more, it remains and will continue to be a game.

    We've made the decision to withdraw "No Mercy" from Steam.

    Note, the thing about the fetishes that harm no one, refers to an explanation of kinky role play and is not meant as a call to be open about any fetishes depicted in the game as a real life activity.

    After trying to argue with people here, I understand that decision. There is emotion involved and a lot of unsound arguments. Calling out those false arguments makes you a babbler or gets you blocked. 

    There are things out there we do not like, but we can't just ban fictional things, because someone does not like it and invents some untrue arguments why no one should see it. Giving it a 1 star, or rather no star and ignoring it, would be appropriate to voice your opinion about the game. And I think activists sould direct their zeal to real problems and not fight the easy target.

    (+4)

    wait... so you're mad this platform banned your rape-porn game... XD

    (+5)

    We are mad because of the way they did it. By using false evidence and by bullying.

    Itch has guidelines and policies. Haters of the game could have made one (1) report about how they feel that game would have violated terms or guidelines. And Itch could have then decided to either unlist the game or remove the game.

    But apparantly Itch just caved in because of spammed actions of those hate groups. On Steam the developers removed the game because of that, after in three countries the game was removed by Steam. And I want to remind you, that Steam has an entry bar. Someone has greenlit the game to not violate the terms for adult games on Steam.

    This is the kind of things the haters did:

    People created videos and spoke with great conviction about things that weren't in it, which showed that they hadn't even launched the game. Some did such extensive "research" that they presented graphics from a completely different game

    (+2)

    bro low-key your turning me into a hater too... everything I see about this game is vile and disgusting. I'm all for free speech, but at the end of the day, what Steam puts on their website/application represents their company and affects their reputation. This game seems vile. If I had a platform like Steam I would remove the game too, and not because I hate you or discriminate against you, but because I don't want to host/advertize this kinds of disgusting content.

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    How was I a hater before knowing about the game? 


    "I am all for free speech and there is no "but" after that." and I'm sure that you would let some random people insult your wife, share inappropriate speech with your children, and use foul language in your house or your private property in defence of this free speech... of course not. Freedom of speech does not override private property... Steam has the right to restrict speech on their platform, especially when it is foul speech that can have negative impacts on Steam's community. Every company does this, Riot, Steam, Epic Games, Twitter, Youtube, Etc. It is not your right to use Steams platform it is a privilege granted to you by Steam, and that privilege can be revocted whenever Steam decides.


    Iv never heard of this game or situation before reading the OP's post but its very telling how many people are trying to defend this vile ubhorrent game. Shows a lot about the Itch.io community.

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    I'm confused by your definition of "freedom of speech". You have the freedom to create whatever art/game you want. The dev could have created the game if he wanted to. Freedom of speech does not require Steam to host your game on their platform, however. 

    Not to mention, if you are a huge champion of "freedom of speech," why are you so upset that the community is "bullying" (your words not mine) when they are also expressing their views through their freedom of speech? So the game dev is protected by the freedom of speech but not the community expressing dissenting views?

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    Ahh, so you cannot contend with my argument and so have resorted to ad hominem. "I can't defend my argument, so I'm going to call you dumb" LMAO

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    Yes, Steam can decide to not host something. They have strict guidelines and quality standards. Which means the main content must have been in the game when they scrutinized it. And they did greenlight the game in the publishing process. Think about that. A professional or more had an actual look at the game and decided it was ok for the adult section of the platform.

    Makes you wonder. Are those people greenlighting games idiots? Is Steam ok with "rape simulators"? Or maybe the activists trying to remove the game did not use quite the truth to rile up their angry mob... (Just read the statement of the developers what actually happened on Steam. Don't take our word for it).

    (+1)

    This is not about free speech. Some might argue that the game would fall under free speech and the government could not forbid it for existing. And that would be true, but besides the point. Although some do argue that the game itself should be forbidden, since it leads to imitation, but that has been disproven for games, including adult games.

    So the haters have no legal grounds either way to call for bans of the game. And resort to bullying platforms, credit card companies and riling up an angry mob in social media to effectively ban it anyway.

    And they did not use "free speech" for that, but lies and harassment. Platforms and eventually the developers rather removed the game, than deal with that pressure.

    It is not in dispute that a platform can remove any kind of content for any kind of reason.

    But it should also not be in dispute that harassment is not ok to achieve such goals. And that it is also not ok to gather supporters by using fallacies and outright lies. Unfortunately, a lot of people justify the means by the ends, since it hit a nieche game they in particular would find disgusting anyway.

    (+2)

    Oh that game is vile. That is not in dispute. It has incest. I understand the appeal. Same as for the blackmail and non con plot devices. Forbidden fruit and all that. Possible in fiction, but not in reality. In short, pulp smut.

    Steam actually did not remove the game. The developers pulled it. I linked to their statement. The game did not violate any of Steams rules for adult games. Otherwise Steam would not have allowed it on the platform in the first place or pulled it after legit allegations. But the allegations were not legit. You need to pay $ 100 to publish on Steam and they do not accept barely started games. They do have a look before allowing something to be published. It might not be a very scrutinizing look for quality, but they do look out for bad apples. It is big news if Steam has to pull a game after publishing.

    Your gloating just reveals the issue I mentioned above. The activists picked an easy target. Easy win. Activists happy. What will be their next target? And that they picked this and used fake evidence to rile up their mob indicates to me, that this was not about the game itself, but about other goals. Like binding their followers and getting new ones.

    gloating? buddy I'v never heard of the game before reading your post... you admit the game is vile, so why would you be surprised if it's taken off a platform? I got no horse in this race, just thought it was telling that people are defending a disgusting game. how do you reconcile, "the activists won" with "the devs pulled the game"? Not even the developers thought they should post the game? (truly asking this iv never heard of this particular situation before)

    (+1)

    Are you ok that fake evidence and bullying was used to fight a game? Yes? Then you can laugh (as you did XD) and I will call that gloating. 

    No? Then you would also "defend this game" as I did? I voiced me not being ok with how the game was attacked and I argued against the points that were used to justify trying to ban such games. Those points were not true when used against the fps I played decades ago. They are not true now, even if it is "a vile" game.

    I suggest reading the statement from the developers I linked to, and how they see their game. It will answer your questions.

    (+1)

    I don't know, man... I don't think I would ever defend a game that has rape, porn, and incest as it's main themes. If the dissentors are using their freedom of speech to "bully" (your words, not mine) the devs to not post their game, then maybe the devs had their minds changed. 

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    (+4)

    People in this thread need to touch grass

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    (+3)

    There are some serious clowns vibin in this thread NGL

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