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Lets talk about a content/age rating system for itch.io

A topic by leafo created Jul 02, 2018 Views: 17,641 Replies: 119
Viewing posts 45 to 60 of 61 · Previous page · First page

I like the idea of doing this but I would expect making things complicated would likely cause problems so from my perspective the following fairly simple solution might work:

Everyone - suitable for all ages.

Shows up in search results.

No content warning regardless of logged on or visiting without logging in.

Example: some sort of flower garden simulator (grow flowers and arrange them in a garden).


Mature - more intense content.

Shows up in search results. 

No content warning if logged in.

Content warning if visiting without logging in.

Example: Some sort of ninja assassin game (sneak around and kill people but not with excessive brutality).


Adult - pretty much anything goes.

The default age rating.

Will not show up in search results unless logged in and a toggle in the profile setting its ticked.

Has a warning if attempting to access it without logging in (like it is already with most of these games).

Has a warning if attempting to access it while logged in and the profile toggle is disabled.

Example: A blatantly obvious porn game (no explanation needed I think).


Where tags are concerned I'm included to leave it to the developer to decide with users that are logged in able to suggest tags however the developer decides if the tag is appropriate or not - specific types of content could be noted here like drug use - to make it easier perhaps a tag cloud of some sort could be made to make tagging accurately easier.

Deleted 2 years ago
(+5)

With respect, this is not only a bad idea, but antithetical to Itch.io's purpose.
There are plenty of porn games on this platform I find distasteful, some of them I even think are wrong to make. But Itch facilitates these games because beyond a basic code of ethics, it is meant to be an open marketplace where anyone can distribute their game. Democratizing games is the goal.

It's reasonable to me that you should have the right to filter out content you don't want to see. It is not, however, reasonable to eradicate content you don't want to see. Banning porn games on Itch would remove vast swathes of queer art, and historically, porn bans have been used to do just that.

Advocate for better content filtering, not abolishing content you don't like. 

(+1)

I feel like a reporting system should be added, if someone doesn’t mark their game containing NSFW as NSFW, the user in itch.io can report him and the admin can force their game to be marked as NSFW after the report is successful.

Moderator(+1)

You can already use the existing report system for that.

Ah already have it? I didn’t pay much attention, after all I rarely play games on itch, and I’m mostly in Developing Games. 😂

Moderator

Yes, there's a little link at the bottom of every project page. It's not very visible.

(+1)

This is a great discussion that needs to happen. Thank you to the Admin and Moderators for leading this effort to improve Itch.io and make it a safe space. I'd like to suggest that perhaps there is a deeper underlying issue underneath. Before coming up with a content/age rating system maybe it would be good to clarify what content is allowed (even within the adult section). I elaborated on this topic on a recent post that suggested a change in the Terms of Service. I encourage you to check it out and take action. Thanks!

(+2)

Personally I'm more interested in highly specific trigger warnings than in vague age ratings.  For example, a player with extreme arachnophobia might have trouble with games that contain spiders, but be totally fine with sexual content.

Trigger warnings feel genuinely helpful to me.  Age ratings feel condescending.

(5 edits)

I also stand against the implementation of a generic age rating system, and would be more happy with some kind of selective "in a category I may dislike" type of warnings system.

And of course there is a huge need for adding some way for users to personally blacklist or ignore games based on tags. At least I can say with confidence, that the "Adult" and "NSFW" section of the site is unpleasant to browse through without any options on content filtering.

My main point is that, people can be adults, with very different tastes in whatever. So a generic "you are 18+ so you are okay with anything" type of system wouldn't work well, and wouldn't improve itch website's current state in any way.

If itch decides to move to a generic, age-based rating system, then at least there should be a separate "For Adults Only" category besides the simple "18+" category, as it's possible to find things on itch with rather odd, uncommon, or extreme content, which surely doesn't pop-up in "simple" "18+" computer games. And here comes in the problem about defining what is allowed in the terms of service and the sensitive matter of artistic freedom and censorship, which I think that anyway can not be enforced without a sophisticated manually supervised curation system, which would at least be able to correctly recognize and tag all games on itch.

By the way, why is it not allowed for users to add tags to games? It would make it a lot more easier to search through the whole selection of games on itch, and more probable to find what people are looking for instead of totally random stuff, even without implementing a tag blacklist system.

so, we are required to add ESRB ratings or something like that???

I don't think this rating is meaningful on the Internet, because games can be downloaded and purchased at will. It can't verify what age people or children bought adult or pornographic content.

If it is a physical CD, the seller can verify the age of the other party (only need to submit the ID card).

In addition, I think that if there is too much adult content, this website will be blocked by many countries because it violates the minor protection law.

The best way is to lock the areas that do not accept porn so that they cannot access pornographic content. Only 16+(or less) content is open to these countries.

That's what STEAM does.

Don't put all your hopes on pornographic content. 

It is not the most profitable thing. 

PAYPAL also prohibits pornographic trading. It would freeze that income.

I think a dedicated ratings board of some sort would be a neat idea, have age ratings be handed out by them, their real humans, this would prevent people lying about their age ratings. This is a common issue on GameJolt, and quite frankly, I think they got rid of the Mature tag, banning illicit games altogether. Now, don’t quote me on that, but I think I saw an email about that.

Either way, I think it would be a good idea to appoint volunteers into the position of “Age Rater”, allowing them to view games that weren’t rated, where they can look at the project, test the games, and make an informed decision as to what the game is. It would help get a grasp on what the games are, and we don’t have to see dozens of lewd games on the home page anymore.

I know it’s a big, complicated change, but I feel like it would serve as a positive change, while not having such a large impact in the community.

If I recall correctly, Game Jolt banned nsfw games because (don't quote me on this) "we have minors on our site and were asked to clean up." Controversy ensued (some think the removals unfairly targeted LGBT+ games,) and itch made this very on brand tweet (Which IIRC Game Jolt quote retweeted and said "itch is a good platform if you want to host nsfw games.)

Well, I don’t know the exact reason, but I reckon that is also a valid reason.

I like the idea, but why restrict it to just Itch, then? Such a board could be independently run.

Moderator(+1)

You mean, like the ESRB?

Yes but ESRB is for computer games only, too corporate and I’d hardly call it independent. I also don’t like the actual rating system. Their one pro is that they have some authority, but even that is only for North America.

What my ideal would be is just an externally verified list of content warnings, that are not ultimately reduced to a single character. Next to each item would be either “light”, “medium” or “heavy” modifiers. Separate into categories mandated by law like 18+ vs not 18+, but leave the actual rating to adults.

I don’t think you can have enough rating boards.

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I personally don’t see an ethical reason for creating an independent rating board, especially to the tune of the ESRB.

The whole idea is basically GameJolt’s solution: “DGRS”

It’s a rating board they created, my idea was basically, this, but mandated by Itch.io themselves, and not user selected.

The truth is, the ESRB is government mandated, on console games, you can’t not have an ESRB rating and sell your game on disks, and in truth, they don’t really have a place on Itch.io, because Itch.io is a private company and doesn’t have to abide by any sort of consumer protection laws, in the sense of adult content. However, the idea of a ratings board for itch.io is really needed for the sake of the customers, so at the end of the day, it really only depends on if they want to add it themselvs or if they don’t want to.

The ESRB would also require you to submit it and go through what million-dollar companies need to do, most indie developers can’t afford those fees.

(1 edit)

I’m not sure if you meant to reply to me. My point is that I don’t enjoy the way ESRB does it, so we end up agreeing in many places.

I would think having a ratings board run by Itch would mean restricting it solely to games hosted on Itch. If that won’t be the case I’m all for it.

Deleted post

Maybe I am too old, but frankly, I do not give a  damn for any distinction for  the demographic of the    13-17yo.   You have to be 13yo to use itch per tos. So the only important age restriction is adult yes or no.

Since there is no curator system and no user tags that I would know of,   all games that would have to be   restricted by their content and not by their age appropriateness, would be dependent on the rating of the dev. And those would be    ...   questionable.

For adults that look for games to play with their children, there do be tags.  If it is tagged horror, for kids it ain't. And if the dev of a jump scare game    would not tag horror or similar, that dev surely would not have rated it correctly for any   maturity   preference.

It is not always about content like Drug usage / Explicit Sexual content/ Graphic violence / Explicit language

Sometimes it is about game theme, difficulty level or some concepts in the game which requires some wider knowledge of the theme about game is. 

So some recommended by developer age level would be needed.  

While that sounds good, would you think there is a difference between a 20yo and a 30yo in terms of recommendation? Because even for 13yo vs 17yo, that concept would not really work out.

And especially for difficulty, there are games that a 13yo will beat, but a 18yo would not.   Reflexes and  enthusiasm can be very high at that age.

Hmm. The more I think about it, the more that idea becomes ... not bad, but obsolete. Just look at the retro games. People in their 40s and 50s are (still or again) playing stuff that they played as a 10yo. Concerning age, the only important thing is, if you should not play it, because you are too young for that type of conent. The rest is personal interests and that is done via tagging.

(Ok, there are games for pre-school kids, that even young teens would not touch. So  recommended age group, is of course a thing.)

No I think till 18 will be enough (I know that in some countries 21 is adult age).

Still there is big difference in 13 yo and 17 yo. 

To be more precise. As I am author of the game about movie production it is quite obvious with understanding of the film industry between 13 yo and 17.

As I remember myself when I was watching 2001 A Space Odyssey  by Kubrick or Blade Runner by Ridley Scott those films was boring when I was around 12... it past many years to understand and appreciate such movies and this comes with life experience and knowledge of medium.

And this is just simple example. What about psychology horrors like Rosmary's Baby by Polanski or classic movies by Hitchcock (13-teens even do not know who he is).

The most statement about my game that is too difficult comes from very young players... because they do not understand some business mechanics, do not have skill of abstract thinking and do not have "life experience".

2001 is boring as an adult even more. And I watched it in double speed.  That one was for people that are high. It had good moments, but overal just too stretched out. You could run it as an art installation somehwere in the background maybe.

So basically you would need a tag that entails that the game is for mature players in a  sense that is not usually used in this context. Like the real meaning and not being the fancy word for saying stuff that minors are not allowed to watch.

Btw, I had a look at your gameplay video. Difficulty would not be easier if people were older. Your game is Rockstar Ate My Hamster with  movies (wich was played by 12yos)   and  an interface that reminds more of an office application than of a game. The gaming part is not the problem, kids will figure that out. Sure it is more complex, but you need not know anything about movies or movie production. Gaming  (at least one part) is about optimization. You get a budget, a time frame, means to spend money to    make money. In short:   management simulation game. You make it sound as if you would need real knowledge to play the game. The game should actually teach those mechanics in the context of the game. Teach as in,   players will figure out optimal strategies.

(Oh, and I saw Blade Runner as a kid and it was not boring to me. Quite the contrary. Maybe a bit scary. ;-)

Yes that is true that game at first sight is playable for everyone. There is nothing fancy there on interface level and it is not a problem to follow some basic mechanics (btw I have written first version of this game when I was 15 years old on Commodore 64). 

 Still when you play it there are some concepts which is hard to understand for younger persons. 

  • For learning economics it is bit tricky of course it works on long term but now players wants immediately reward, as there is some randomness in the game (based on the principle "Art is not the math") some players have problem with this. 
  • Also problem is to understand the currency in the game are not USD but some abstract currency which is not comparable with anything in the world (especially with salaries or profits real movies which are currently in BoxOffice). 
  • Another concept is abstraction for example limited number of cast "Why I can't hire unlimited number of actors like in Avengers". 
  • Or why you can cast sport star or political in the movie? (it looks that more choices is problem for some players)
  • game can be taken a bit more seriously or less seriously (and some players have problem with party "why so serious" ;)

About knowing the movie it partially true as it is not mandatory but it gives some additional context and layers of fun (with cult characters concept or cult movies which based on IMDB real films)

So there are small things which requires some abstract thinking and younger audience have problem with it. 

So to make it summary yes as you write this is for mature players in not common sense (as most of the ratings based on content) but still I would like to suggest some age category for players. As you do not watch Tarkowsky's or Bergman's movies with 7 yo kid.

P.S. I won't comment your movies preferences as everybody has it's own taste and perception of specific movies :)

I saw 2001 only a few weeks ago... ;-)   High expectations, because the movie was so acclaimed. 

The concepts and mechanics are not causing the problems, the way you describe it, imho. Having fantasy currency is  the norm in games. Having hidden   preferences   of your   toons is not a problem either, you  just have to figure them out. And if the game (accurately) teaches long term  economics, yay, tag for educational.   Limitations of party size is a staple of any game you control more than one toon.   You do not hire a thief to fill a mage's role either. All those concepts are well known and understandable to even young players.

I do not think, I  get what you mean with abstract thinking. The whole concept of playing a game is an excercise in abstract thinking.    You do see the results of your planning in the game, do you not? I remember distinctly  from your video that you even see how the audience reacts and to what. Like having the setting in a specific region.   What is "abstract" about making the connection that certain combinations will have certain effects? That is not different from  improving your damage per second in an mmo that is played by 12yo.

People will probably not get the assumed easter eggs, if they do not know the movies they recreate. That is a given. 

I am not sure, if the kids that now perceive the game as difficult would have a different opinion,  if they first encountered the game as a mature adult. My guess the problem is not difficulty, but appeal. Your game looks like an accountant software. Kids dig difficulty in general.  Just look at "nintendo hard" or Dark Souls. But just like    adults, not all kids dig difficulty. Or management games. But the thing is, more people are playing games nowayday then back in the 80s.  Gamer kids back then were more nerdy, and those gamers  are adults now. So I  presume, that adult gamers are currently a little bit more  nerdy than the younger gamers. And your game looks like it appeals to the nerd in all of us. Fussing about details as an accountant.

(2 edits) (+1)

It would be great if we could mute games site wide per tag, so if I don’t want to see any games tagged Adult or Erotic it will hide those results (loooots of NSFW stuff in the Top Sellers list* :P) You can add a button in the list labelled “Some search results are hidden per your muted tags”.

* I mean, good for them, but it’s not something I want to see every time I check out sales trends.

I do not like the idea of age ratings for games (or anything else, for that matter). There's no widespread agreement about "what's appropriate for a 16-year-old but not for a 14-year-old" or even "what's appropriate for 17-year-olds but not 12-year-olds." It's easy to discuss the broad outlines but impossible to find agreement on the edge cases - and labels that don't work on the edge cases are useless.

The most well-known age-based standards are used for movies. But games are not movies, and even if the same standards were attempted ("no more than one, non-sexual use of the F word in a PG-13 movie") (let's not think about what the rating "parental guidance" would mean in video games), it's unclear what that would mean in practice. Does "no more than one" mean "you can absolutely only encounter this once, IF you pick the right path," or can it mean "you can repeat the scene where this happens many times?"

"For adults only" runs into problems as well. Is that:

  • Content the creator thinks is appropriate for adults (18+) but not minors (17 or less)?
  • Content the creator thinks is illegal for minors? 
  • ...in what country?
  • Content that contains imagery that would not be shown on daytime TV in the US?
  • Content that contains sexual/erotic themes?
  • Content that contains extreme violence, gore, or crimes?
  • Content that addresses mature, complex story themes?
  • ...How do all these rules apply to TTRPGs or text-based games?

Having an official label for "Adult" content, as opposed to a creator-chosen tag, runs the risk of getting legal entanglements. Itch.io might be stuck being responsible for trying to keep minors away from the content - meaning they'd need some kind of age verification attached to the accounts. (Meaning: only honest minors would be blocked from the content. There is no way to do actual age verification online.) 

I'd like better filters and sorting. I'm very fond of AO3's method, but that's not likely applicable in other settings. AO3 has a short list of mandatory tags (including an option to not use any of them), and it relies on a large pool of "tag wrangler" volunteers to make help people find what they want and avoid what they don't. (At the simplest: Tag wrangling would mean making "roguelike" and "rogue-like" both show up in the same search. It cuts down on excess tags.)

I have yet to see a rating system that had objective standards and was applied fairly. (AO3 gets around this with a lot of hand-waving for the edge cases - and by not having any attempt at age verification, just a clickthrough that says "I promise I'm old enough to read this.") I have never seen an age-based system that was willing to answer questions in advance about how a work should be categorized - it's always "put your work up, and if someone complains about it, we may adjust the rating."

I would  much rather there were better tagging & sorting options than an imposed rating system. Even without tag wrangling - give me something like AO3's filters: Let me choose a set of tags to see, a set of tags to avoid, and sort by price or downloads or date updated. 

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