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is itch.io a platform or a publisher? Locked

A topic by ErrArachnica created Jun 11, 2019 Views: 5,416 Replies: 21

This topic was locked by No Time To Play Jun 14, 2019

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ErrArachnica5 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

i want to double check legal things because i like having my paperwork in order. as you know, these 2 types of legal entities have different actions they are allowed to do, and some actions they can't do

namely, a publisher has the legal right to trim content. platforms don't, they're public squares. you either explicitly hold the right to trim content that doesnt break the law, or you don't and doing so violates the law.

you'll probably have heard the news that google and facebook currently have anti-trust shotguns aimed on them.

https://www.businessinsider.com/justice-department-google-antitrust-case-2019-5

https://www.businessinsider.com/ftc-oversight-potential-facebook-antitrust-probe...

i was wondering what category itch.io fits in, seeing as lying about that question might become legally dicey moving forward. even now, lying about it might not be a good idea

if no one from the itch.io staff answers this directly, can we drag them into a congressoinal hearing too? i don't know what the CEO here looks like, but hopefully he's not a lizard person as well

leafoPinned ReplyAdmin5 years ago(+4)

We are a private platform for hosting content. We are free to choose who can post and do business on our platform. We set and enforce rules for many reasons, including to protect the people on our platform, along with our own moderation and admin team.

namely, a publisher has the legal right to trim content. platforms don't, they're public squares. you either explicitly hold the right to trim content that doesnt break the law, or you don't and doing so violates the law.

This is not true. Your examples are corporations being litigated in an antitrust lawsuit. itch.io is a small company, representing a fraction of the industry. Additionally, there is no legal requirement for us to host anyone's content, we are not a "public square".

I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't like how the business is operated then you're free to leave and post your work elsewhere. Sorry

firecat5 years ago(+1)

Itch.io is a gaming platform meaning it is a website for games. Publisher is a company that supports ideas. They are two different things and being a developer with the abilty to sell does not automanty make it into a publisher.

- gaming platform is a website to play games, sell and trade.

- publisher is supporting an idea through money or other means.

An example for platform is itch.io because anyone can have a chance to be a developer and anyone can play games.

An example of a publisher is Steam, rejecting bad ideas, accepting good ideas and kinda spending money or such.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

steam is indeed a publisher but they've declared free speech is okay

this place *might be according to the claims of non-verified users* a platform, and an admin once told me he deleted nazis but refused to define what nazi meant when pressed for a hard definition. if true, and that admin was doing that under the umbrella of "platform", that's actually completely illegal and violates free speech/content law

firecat5 years ago

Valve does the same thing, OneAngryGamer has over 100 news reports of Valve removing games: https://www.oneangrygamer.net/?s=steam+banned

Steam is not really a free speech platform, they will remove any game they want: https://techraptor.net/content/valve-removes-rape-day-steam

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/08/valve-removes-gay-nation-from-steam-for-tr...

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2019/01/valve-silently-changes-curation-rules-for-...

ErrArachnica5 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

false.

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2018/06/ncose-screeches-fitfully-about-valve-valui...

>Valve opted to recant their authoritarian position and opt for a more user-controlled system where users get to filter in and filter out what games appear for them to purchase.

also, you're wrong about this place being a platform. someone with an actual mod tag came in and said here was a "marketplace"

firecat5 years ago

Banneding games which has no sexual content is not a good reason to call the site free speech. Also banneding anything they consider "greay" area is not real free speech its called being the police. Also the mod is a person like me, he doesn't have the answers from the developers and can only be the police for this forum website.

i just think its a platform because many websites call their stores platform and it make sence in a english kinda way. calling it marketplace is more about selling stuff if we consider the english word for it.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (1 edit)

it's also a different type of legal moniker they seem to conveniently operate under

does a "marketplace" have the rules of a publisher or a platform? this is a fairly critical legal question lawyers would probably advise to not fuck up

publisher rules or platform rules then? which is it? it's a super-simple question to answer

firecat5 years ago

marketplace is a place to sell stuff, that is the most common thing everyone agrees. So rules of selling and ecommerce apply. Since platform websites are mostly a website hosted by a domain with a provider this legal matter falls to the website owner and only agreements in the Term of service and/or Term of use with Privacy statement. Otherwise the domain provider is in legal trouble.

Now the tricky part, every country has different words for the ecommerce market. Even if you think you are safe there is a chance you might not be safe. I wont go over each county laws or rules for the ecommerce but they all agree that anything that sells online is called ecommerce otherwise it is just a normal website.

"e-commerce: business carried out by electronic means

A person providing an information society service is obliged to make available to the recipient of that service certain information. A service provider is under a duty to ensure that any commercial communications constituting or forming part of an information society service which he provides complies with certain requirements. A service provider is under a duty to ensure that any unsolicited commercial communication sent by him is clearly and unambiguously identifiable as such as soon as it is received and to provide certain information where contracts are concluded by electronic means unless parties who are not consumers have agreed otherwise. More practical substance appears in relation to DISTANCE SELLING. Special provisions have been made to facilitate certain aspects of e-commerce, see e.g. CONDUIT, CACHING, HOSTING.

Collins Dictionary of Law W.J. Stewart, 2006"

The rules fall under the law then the domain provider and lastly website owner. This is the simplist ways i could explain.

William O'Connell5 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

Not a lawyer, but I think the chance of Itch.io being served an antitrust lawsuit is pretty small since they're a relatively tiny player in a fairly competitive space (Steam, Epic Store, GOG, GameJolt, etc.). I also don't know of anything they've done that could be considered anti-competitive.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (3 edits) (+1)

leftist political bias has gone unpunished for a long time, and it's half the reason google and FB have the anti-trust guns aimed on them. leftists hate centrists and people on the right, and censor them. this site is leftist but now doing so might be legally dangerous

trump has a website/hotline set up to start reporting left-wing bias (if you're a legal US citizen, look it up if you think itch.io has discriminated against you)

don't take my word for it, explain the senate questioning of zucc and dorsey and other figures from the digital MSM.

also, i'm still not seeing a response with the right user flairs. i want to hear from the site admins before i'll believe a word of anything

like, if i posted a game with swastikas in it people here would hate it, but it would be completely legal under US free speech and the title of "platform". so, what happens if i try actually doing that?

if they call themselves a platform and deleted my game for illegal reasons under the "platform" umbrella, could i seriously sue them for doing so? the fact FB and google are on the firing line right now seems to indicate "yes"

leafoAdmin5 years ago (1 edit) (+3)

if they call themselves a platform and deleted my game for illegal reasons under the "platform" umbrella, could i seriously sue them for doing so? the fact FB and google are on the firing line right now seems to indicate "yes"

You can technically sue anyone, so the question really is would the case hold up. With your example precedent, the answer is no. FB and Google are part of an antritrust lawsuit. Essentially, they are such large companies that the plaintiff is claiming that they represent communication on the internet, and that messages going through their platform should be regulated by the government.

itch.io is a small business that represents a fraction of the industry. It would be effectively impossible to make the case that by us limiting who can post on our platform prevents those people from posting their work at all. There are many other game platforms, and it's also relatively easy to set up your own website & payments as well.

Also, as a side note, you've referenced that we would be deleting a hypothetical game for illegal reasons. This is incorrect. We are free to choose who we host and do business with. We have every right to delete any account we want. All private business typically have this right. Running a business is about trust though, so we don't go around deleting accounts without reason. We establish trust with our users by having a clear terms of service and setting a standard through precedent. Sometimes it can be a little tricky, but in those instances we take those cases individually because we want to be fair with every party involved.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (5 edits)

thank you for responding with some actual answers

>We are free to choose who we host and do business with.

okay, does that mean a "marketplace" carries the ruleset of a publisher and not a platform? if asking this question resolves the post, i will happily admit i was answered. whenever a company operates under an unclear legal type, it's hard to judge boundaries without directly asking like this

also if that is the case, would it be rude to suggest that spelling that out clearer to others, might be a workable idea? IE "itch.io is a marketplace and operates as a publisher" instead of saying some grey area?

No Time To PlayModerator5 years ago(+4)

Belatedly, Itch.io is neither a publisher nor a platform. It's a marketplace. Think of is as a mall where you can rent space and set up a store where you can sell your wares. Renting out space is a business, and a business is within its rights to throw people out if they're being disruptive or breaking the law on its premises. That doesn't limit anyone's free speech, since there are many other places where one can offer a game for download. And last time I checked, hate speech was illegal in every civilized country, including the US where Itch.io is based. So yes, Itch.io admins can delete games at their discretion and still be fully within their rights. Making vague threats over the possibility is only going to make reconciliation less likely.

ErrArachnica5 years ago

i'm going to need you cite legal proof on:

A. this site being a "marketplace"

and

B. that being that, gives you the right to delete content at your discretion.

ALSO, "hate speech" does not exist (it's a shutdown tactic by labeling certain words), and that concept is trumped anyways by the first amendment. free speech is king, and all else is a lie and nobody cares about your feelings.

most civilized countries don't have hate speech laws, that's only the leftist ones (and thank the gods many don't). i realize your role might give you a big ego but you fail at understanding the rest of the world. you appear to be imagining the rest of the world as downtown california. you are very incorrect.

now, could you please so kind as to locate A and B for me to prove your point? you clearly have access to that documentation

No Time To PlayModerator5 years ago(+2)

I don't need to cite any legal proof. For one thing it's not my department, and second, this is a privately owned website that facilitates the sale of goods by other people. Feel free to disagree with me about the meaning of the word "marketplace".

I will, however, cite from our community guidelines:

Do not create posts about sensitive topics that may instigate argument

While we certainly respect free speech, we ask for your consideration of others
in the channel and in our community. Avoid posting material that promotes
polarizing views about religion, race, gender, politics, or any other groups.

As for most countries not having hate speech laws, Wikipedia seems to disagree. I can assure you that most if not all European countries do; it seems I was wrong about the United States. Even so, our community guidelines cover this area nicely. The owners of Itch.io are within their rights to set such rules and enforce them, just as the owners of a mall could kick you out for intimidating or insulting other shoppers, or for that matter other sellers. We want as many people as possible to feel welcome here, and that excludes certain behaviors.

ErrArachnica5 years ago

>I don't need to cite any legal proof. For one thing it's not my department

why am i even fucking talk to you right now then?

get up out of your chair, go to the legal department, get whoevers job it actually is, to comment on this. why are you even commenting here if it's not your department, as you say? you're saying legal claims that if proven false, could bite the website in the ass

also as a parting note, wikipedia is not a valid research source, and any basic schoolteacher will tell you this

No Time To PlayModerator5 years ago (1 edit) (+2)

You're assuming a lot about me. E.g. that I'm somehow employed by Itch.io or even on the same continent as the rest of the team. And you're talking to me because our admins are busy people who can't always answer right away. Rest assured they've been informed of this exchange. As for Wikipedia not being valid, does that mean it's also wrong about hate speech laws in the US, by any chance?

Edit: Speaking of which: nobody has been making any legal claims. Discussing what is and isn't legal in various countries doesn't count. Discussing what kind of business Itch.io is doesn't count either. You brought up the law, right from the original post. I'm pretty sure (and this isn't legal advice; I am not a lawyer) that implied threats like you've been making this whole time would weigh more heavily in a court of law, if things ever got that far, than any mistakes I may have made in this conversation.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (3 edits)

stop talking. you just said this wasnt your department.

because you've stated this is not your job now, i'll wait until the person whose job it actually is, shows up. the only thing you can possibly add to this conversation now is *nothing*

you are the least professional, least qualified, and most immature mod i've ever seen. the last time we talked, a common user was better at actually finding source links then you (because you were instead wasting time explaining how nazis were bad). that's the truth of what happened, and i don't want to hear your response because you just stated this is no longer your job now.

No Time To PlayModerator5 years ago (1 edit) (+3)

That was a figure of speech. And I can add that a community runs on good understanding between people. Most of us don't go around asking what is and isn't legal to say while shopping in a mall; it's simply not needed. In fact, we've only received that kind of question once before. Strangely enough, that person also mentioned, unprompted, a certain genocidal ideology that's outright banned in most countries.

Edit: ah, that was you? In that case, the answer hasn't changed since last time: if you post such a game and people report it, we're going to take action. That much is certain.

ErrArachnica5 years ago (3 edits) (+1)

so, like last time i should assume free speech and free creative expression is dead on this site?

maybe leave your hatred for groups you disagree with, at the fucking door, when you come into work everyday. you seem overly emotional, emotionally immature, and seem to revel in banning those you hate. you shouldn't have the power of banning things, until you get your shit sorted out

if silencing people is a charge you want to level against the "nazis" you apparently try to hunt down, you're being exactly that right now, and a hypocrite. FFS is it really that hard for you let people be?

as i said, you were so damn intent on explaining why hate speech was bad, that a common user had to do your fucking job for you. do i need to explain why that's a sign you should do better? instead of helping me by giving the info i asked for, you thought it was a far better option to lecture at my face. fuck you in particular for that.

i saw my first impression of you, now i've seen my second, and i don't like you, or your stupid mod conduct. you even existing as you do now, makes me hate this entire website.

No Time To PlayModerator5 years ago(+9)

You do realize this site hosts over 170 thousand games of incredible diversity, and that you're still not banned despite behavior that would amply warrant it. I am, however, locking this topic now, since it has degenerated into insults. Have a good day.

No Time To PlayModerator locked this topic 5 years ago

This topic was locked by No Time To Play Jun 14, 2019