Post by Melancholy Marionette in Darling Duality comments

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Melancholy Marionette2 years ago (6 edits)

Go for iiiit :D I've pretty much been addicted to making VNs ever since I started out trying to create them, haha. Ren'py was actually the very first tool I used since it's free with loads of helpful tutorials. I managed to make a small test project that didn't really have a story, more just learning how to code in choices and such with some placeholder sprites. I didn't enjoy it at all >.< In fact, I almost gave up on the idea of making VNs completely, haha.

It's not that Ren'py was bad. Far from it! It's just I found the coding aspect a total headache. Sure, I didn't give myself enough time to learn everything I needed to, but I spent enough time on the test project to know that I didn't like coding one bit. And that's when I came across Tyranobuilder in a Humble Bundle.

Tyrano promised it was for writers, not coders. For people who just wanted to get on with telling a story using an easy drag and drop interface, but also with the ability to add more in-depth features if you do decide to delve into coding.

In short, it absolutely does what it says on the tin. I found it extremely easy to use, though a tad clunky in execution. I made all of my first ever game (Solipsism Reigns) using it. I wouldn't say I was 100% happy with it, but I did enjoy myself more than when I attempted to use Ren'py.

Years later, when I eventually finished SR, I ended up coming across Naninovel for Unity. From what I could see, it seemed to be the perfect sort of in-between tool that I was looking for. It also promised it was for people not too keen on proper coding, but rather than using a drag and drop interface, it uses simplified scripting. Which is soooo much faster and more efficient than drag and drop, provided you're a swift typer. The scripting language is genuinely easy to understand as well, so I've had very little in the way of headaches, haha.

Darling Duality - Winter Wish, is the first project I created using Naninovel x Unity, and because I was both trying to finish a game while also learning how it all worked within the space of a month, it's not the greatest example of what you can do with it >.< There was a lot I didn't know. My script is extremely messy. Which is why I'm currently going through all of DD's existing content and making sure everything is much smoother while making various tweaks and additions. Because my script was so bad that now I've got so much more experience, it would be too impractical to work with going forward. I've essentially had to rewrite most of it, haha.

For a far better example of what can be done with Naninovel x Unity, I would recommend checking out my Spooktober Jam project, Limbo Line. I feel as though it's much more polished than my other projects, not just because I was able to work with an incredible team of artists during the jam, but because I had learned more in general about how things work by then. Heck, I'm still learning now! I recently discovered how to create particle effects in Unity so that I can use them in Darling Duality :3

Sorry anyhow, I'm rambling here >.< What I'm trying to say is that Ren'py is amazing, and I'd say probably the best tool out there for creating VNs for most people. But for me, I find it much easier and more fun to use Naninovel x Unity :3 Nani did cost a fair bit of money even though I got it at 75% off during a Unity asset store sale, but I'd say it's been worth every penny, and I have no plans to switch to using anything else anytime soon :3 It's all just a matter of personal preference I suppose. With Ren'py, you're learning a skill that can be used for other things since you're learning Python. Naniscript can't be used outside of Naninovel, so it's far less useful as a skill but much easier and faster to grasp if you don't have the head for coding like me x3

I'm sorry I went on for so long there, haha. It's a bad habit I have whenever I get talking about stuff I'm passionate about x3 I'm really glad you've enjoyed what little there is of DD so far :3 With any luck, you'll like it even more once I've got the next update out with everything being revamped to look better, run smoother, and, of course, additional story content!

LC_Saiko2 years ago(+1)

No problem, mate. I find myself rambling when I talk about something I like the same. Don't worry, Renpy isn't the make-all of visual novels. You use what you're comfortable with. I usually only code in C# in Unity but I like the simplicity of Python.

Moreover, other than just making a label and say "do this", Renpy is kinda my life when it comes to making and modding visual novels. It's good but there are multiple engines just as good or even better so never think you have yo be limited.

Melancholy Marionette2 years ago

The thing I hate the most is that I've spent so long making VNs now, but not taken the time to learn a proper coding language, which I feel is a waste >.< but the problem is, I just hate it so much xD It's my least favourite thing about making VNs, haha. I love seeing it all come together, but actually sitting there and typing out what's necessary to make that happen kinda does my head in >.< I like writing stories, putting BGM together, editing sprites + voice acting... pretty much every aspect of making VNs, aside from the coding part, haha. It's more just a necessity with being a solo dev T_T

I've been giving some serious thought to attempting to learn C# recently though after getting a supposed complete course in a Humble Bundle a while back! Not knowing proper coding does make me feel somewhat inadequate sometimes when it comes to making VNs x3 As though I'm somehow cheating compared to the folks who have made the effort to learn Python and use Renpy! But then that's just me being silly really cos I've taught myself a whole bunch of other stuff instead >.<

I did like the look of Visual Novel Maker for a while, but I read too much about it having a number of issues so that sort of put me off of it.

I mean with you already knowing how to code, you've got so much more choice than me for what you can use, haha. I've been extremely impressed by some of the Renpy games I've played, that's for sure! I guess you're right about never having to limit yourself though :3 Someday I'd like to make a hybrid VN game, but that's a long way off cos I just don't have the required skills/knowledge for that right now, haha.

Good luck if you do end up starting a project anyhow! :3

LC_Saiko2 years ago(+1)

I'd say I'm somewhat competent with coding instead of knowing how to. It's more of a repetition thing if you know what lines to use to achieve what outcome. Yeah, I like writing stories and I've lost motivation for the same amount of them simply because I think they'd be a ton better with visuals. The ideas are still there, just not taking front and centre at the moment. Giraffe Academy on YT has some really neat beginner courses on different langauages which should be able to help if you're interested.

Being a solo dev has a lot of drawbacks but the payoff is worth it in the early days. I've never really been on a team myself and about all of my work have been for my self gratitude or fantasy. It's fine though, I like to think the more you struggle, the better it's going to feel when you see how it blossoms

Melancholy Marionette2 years ago

I'm very much a tinkerer when it comes to trying to learn stuff, even if it's not the most practical way of learning x3 So most of what I have managed to pick up has been through experimenting, haha. I struggle to find tutorials that I can actually follow >.< I don't know what it is about my darn brain, but instructions have to be written in a very specific way for me to actually understand. I guess that could be my ASD in play there. Many a time I have gone to look up help for stuff, spent ages reading through people's advice and instructions on how to achieve certain things, and just been utterly baffled by it. I often wind up super frustrated. It's as though the instructions are missing key steps, perhaps because they assume the reader would already have that knowledge, but it leaves me lost. So then I just resort to brute-forcing a problem again, haha.

I kinda get what you mean about thinking stuff would be better with visuals because I sometimes come up with ideas for audio dramas, only to buckle and end up making them as VNs instead (pretty much what happened with Darling Duality xD cos it wasn't reeeeally supposed to be a VN, haha.) I'm not sure I could ever go back to thinking about making things as text or audio-only based now because I've been infected by the VN bug x3

I'll have to give Giraffe Academy a look up when I get a chance then! With any luck, I might actually be able to follow the courses :3

Yeah, I definitely enjoy being a solo dev, but not being able to cover all the roles that a team would can sometimes be frustrating >.< Oh, how I wish I could draw! I actually used to think years ago that I would never be capable of working as part of a team cos of my anxiety, and that solo would always be the way to go for me, but after taking the plunge to team up for last year's otome jam and spooktober vn jam, I can honestly say that I reckon being part of a team made each project more fun to work on :3 Especially Limbo Line for spooktober cos that was a pretty big team when you include all the voice actors who were involved. There was such wonderful energy! And there's no way I could've come up with everything that's in the game were I on my own. It was just one of those lovely patches in time where all the pieces of the puzzle fit perfectly together ^-^ I think I was hyper pretty much all of September thanks to that, haha. It's really difficult to describe the sheer amount of joy I felt while working on that project with everyone.

All of my stuff has been self-indulgence too pretty much, haha. I don't think I'd even be capable of working on something that I wouldn't be interested in playing myself. I was actually approached last year by someone scouting for writers for a vn-style romance app on mobile. It was paid work, but with pretty strict deadlines. They wanted a sample story to see if I'd be a good fit if I were interested, and encouraged me to take a look at their current content to get an idea of what their users like to read. Since I'm broke and relatively unemployable, I thought I'd give it a shot. Well, I did not enjoy any of the chapters I sampled one bit >.< I tried a few different opening chapters of various genres, but none of them were my cup of tea. I could clearly see the sort of stuff they were after. Essentially smut stories, where choices had next to no impact, the story itself was practically non-existent, the characters were all shallow, and the steamiest of scenes were locked behind a paywall so that users would be forced to purchase the in-game currency to even see them.

Despite that, I attempted to come up with something I thought would be suitable. I purposely dimmed down the details and tried to focus on the tension-building (because one of their guidelines was to have a climactic moment + corresponding choice that could be a microtransaction in every chapter, even though the chapters were only a 5-15 minute read), but I was told that there was still too much detail and not enough drama in my submission >.< They gave me another couple of days to submit a revised version, but I was just honest and told them that I couldn't do it. I already pretty much despised what I submitted the first time. If I shaved any more off of it it would have just been a pointless husk. I could already feel a creeping dread at the thought of having to write an entire story like it, so I backed out. The money wouldn't have been worth the misery it would have caused me.

But yeah, I totally agree that the struggle makes any sort of payoff that much sweeter :3 I'm still blown away every time I get a nice comment on one of my projects! I'd carry on making stuff for as long as I'm enjoying doing it even if nobody else knew it existed, but every single bit of positive feedback I get from others is enough to fuel my hope that I might someday be able to actually make a living doing what I love. I'd rather die than slave away for someone else doing something that I hate anyways (sidenote: I think it was working in retail for a short while that really made that attitude flourish!)

I really should stop rambling anyhow cos I've just gone off on a really long one again, sorry xD I hope you do manage to bring some of your ideas to life in VN form though cos that would be brilliant :3

LC_Saiko2 years ago(+1)

I get what you mean. It's why I rather games from indie teams and solo devs. You actually get to see the work and passion put into the games compared to the big companies who just throw anything in and try to make it a cash grab. I dunno, visuals just work better for me and it's ironic I grew up reading novels which don't have pictures.

I can do a thing or two when drawing female anime style characters, not too good with the guys, but it's nowhere up to scratch to draw the entirety of the poses and expressions needed for my own VN. Plus, I struggle when duplicating a drawing. Not sure why but I might draw something and it looks awesome and that's it, I can't recreate it.

Maybe being on a team would give me some motivation to continue but I doubt that's a guarantee. I'll just see if I can get someone to do all the models I need for a low cost. Voice acting is something way out of my mind right now but I at least have the story and what I want to convey in mind. On top of that, I'm planning to include a bunch of ways the story could end up. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen but hey, I love torturing myself.

Melancholy Marionette2 years ago

I never even realised that some of the old mobile VN games I used to play years ago before I discovered VNs were a thing on PC were such huge cash grabs until years later >.< Now I look back at them, I wish I had discovered PC stuff sooner. It got to the point with those apps that I would start reading a new release and think, hang on a minute, this is practically the same story as X game they released X years ago, but with different sprites x3 That was when I felt kinda foolish for spending money on those sorts of pay-per route games when I was younger. Even worse, I would later discover that one company in particular who I must've spent a fair amount of money on, treated their writers awfully :( They were sorta named and shamed in a big whistleblowing article when they threatened to fire all their writing staff if they refused to accept a cut in pay. The company just claimed they could easily replace the lot of them with folks who would work for cheaper o.O

I mean, I was semi-aware of the fact that some people working for larger games companies weren't treated fantastically, but it never really occurred to me until then that it was also an issue involving the creation of VNs cos I'd always thought of them as being small team affairs. It makes sense though that the kind of apps that churn out regular content have a who team of overworked, underpaid writers at their disposal >.<

Hehe, yeah, I grew up just reading regular novels too. Then I discovered these 'Choose your own adventure' books, which I fell in love with :3 I never quite played the proper way because I couldn't be bothered to roll a dice during battles x3 and I always kept 1 finger wedged in the previous page in case the choice I made wound up sending me to a page where I died xD but they were a lot of fun! When I first found out VNs were a thing, and basically those books but with audio and visuals, I pretty much lost my shit. VNs rocketed right up there to be my joint-favorite game genre next to RPGs, haha.

Well, you can do better than me then! I'm hopeless >.< I can just about copy a basic image, but it'll come out kinda wonky, and similarly to what you said, I'd never be able to duplicate anything. My mum, who is pretty good at art to the point that she's had no formal tutoring, but can pick up a pencil and sketch a perfect image of Sailor Moon >.> claims that art is a skill anyone can learn. I feel as though while that's true, it's one of those things that you either have a talent for or you don't in the same way that you can technically teach anyone to sing, but some will still sound pretty awful. Cos I studied art for a few years, practiced, and just didn't get even remotely better at it xD I'm pretty sure I completely lack the talent to draw.

You could always jump into a jam with a theme that catches your interest sometime just to dip your toes in the water and see if you enjoy teaming up on something for a short while :3 The main thing that put me off of ever looking for a team for that sort of thing was the fear that people might drop out and leave you in a sticky spot for finishing a project cos I've heard that happens fairly often >.<" But for me personally, it all went great :3

But yeah, self-funding is an issue if you don't have a decent income >.< If I did have an income, I'd probably put almost all of it into my projects x3 Keep enough to survive, spend the rest of making gubbins, haha. But I'm perma-poor, so I've had to rely on the generosity of others in terms of direct help with stuff like art and voice acting + general support to go towards paying people in the future for their work. The only reason I place quite a high priority on voice acting is because I love it so much myself that it's one of my huge motivators. Not being able to afford voice acting for CiQ is one of the reasons I wound up having to put the project on hold. Cos of the lack of interest in the project, I'm just gonna have to see if I can somehow fund partial voice acting myself or something. Either way, I'll get it released eventually cos there's no way I'm abandoning a project I've already written x3

Having various endings might be a bit of a nightmare, but it's super satisfying when it eventually all comes together :D

LC_Saiko2 years ago(+1)

I never really liked big companies solely on the basis most, if not all, of them treat their employees like serfs. I don't really plan on joining any of those, small teams work best for me of not solo.

Melancholy Marionette2 years ago

Yeah, I refuse to support stuff like that now that I'm more aware of it. Not that I ever have much money to buy games anyways xD

Solo or small teams where everyone matters are the way to go :3

LC_Saiko2 years ago(+1)

Yup, everyone works better in an environment and team where they feel comfortable. Overworking employees is a problem I wish to solve but when put that way, there are mountains of problems I wish to correct but may never do. It's quite the brazen reality check and it just makes the individual seem so insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

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