Post by cue5c in Hera and the Recurring Marian Devotion in P's Magic

Viewing post in Hera and the Recurring Marian Devotion in P's Magic

>the clash between native folklore and Catholicism

I really felt this. I'm descended from a family that the king of Spain sent to California/Mexico and our families converted the local native tribes to Catholicism to essentially use them as slave labor. So little of their culture remains outside of certain tools to make food and a few of their stories, but not nearly enough. So much of my city has been stylized to mimic the architecture my community brought, but much of it has also been destroyed, with only the missions along the state and a small chunk here and there preserved. Seeing those ghosts built by force and not divinity as my ancestors would imagine still standing proud or used as icons has always felt... Conflicting.

I ended up greatly enjoying the Tapir quests and Nini's role. I could be reading too much into this, but I enjoyed that the Christian burial brought nothing. How Nini's vision had some truth to it: Breaking the curse was linked to the cruel deaths of those the bones once were, as well as the sunken church. However it was filtered through building a memorial of sorts honoring the beliefs of those that killed them. Nini couldn't see past her own gain and so her suggestion was tainted. She was more concerned with it as a holy vision allowing her to wash away guilt than an actual solution.

I'm glad the real solution wasn't an instant fix. It was just a chance for real change if the people could build something new. I imagine the salt mining that defines the region will eventually stop existing and then it will be up to the people in the region whether they curse the land for changing or bless it by adapting. Whatever happens they do unto themselves, and in that sense, the Tapir god made manifest their biblical beliefs.

Nanoff4 years ago(+5)

>the salt mining that defines the region will eventually stop existing

Yup, I'm glad someone is bringing this up. I don't like the idea of visual novels giving players a best ending hidden behind obscure dialogue choices, ideally every consequential in game decision should have both drawbacks and benefits to the point that even if you know the outcome, which is the best solution is debatable and up to the player.

Giving the pelt back to the tapir rights this historical wrong, but oh boy, is it really going to fuck up that region's economy. And it's not framed as a particularly satisfying moment for P, either. He just gets shat on for doing it.

And yeah, as someone that lives in a country that makes most of their GDP exporting meat, this is a very present debate to me. Cattle raising is not exactly the most environmentally friendly of economic activities. If we have to reduce global consumption of animal products for the sake of reducing carbon emissions (and, you know, animal cruelty), a whole lot of people here will go hungry.

It's not really a situation that has a solution that will leave everyone happy.

cue5c4 years ago(+5)

>as someone that lives in a country that makes most of their GDP exporting meat, this is a very present debate to me. Cattle raising is not exactly the most environmentally friendly of economic activities. If we have to reduce global consumption of animal products for the sake of reducing carbon emissions (and, you know, animal cruelty), a whole lot of people here will go hungry.

It's not really a situation that has a solution that will leave everyone happy.

Situations like this are so much harder because most people were likely just born into this and didn't have a say in the matter. So they grew up with the expectation that this would always exist and possibly cut off other opportunities, if they existed in the first place. Not only that, but with the world as connected as it is in our time, it makes switching industries that much harder as whatever you shifted to, another country may already be supplying that. There's really no easy solution and so whatever is left must be complex. Complexity is always going to be a hard sell, as any change is.

And yes, it will likely cause considerable hardship to the people whose lives are spent in the era transitioning. Which is either our era, or we push it off for a younger generation to "solve" which really only means a worse situation that is hopefully still reversible. It's modern philosophy, where the questions raised come with answers that are felt not just mentally, but physically as well. I think every country is dealing with something like this, but I imagine it's felt so much more with one like yours since meat exportation is something very tangible to everyone.

>And it's not framed as a particularly satisfying moment for P, either. He just gets shat on for doing it.

P getting shat on is fitting for a few reasons. The first is that he's doing this for (semi) selfish reasons, and not to correct any wrongdoing because it's the right thing to do. He's still ultimately using the tapir. The second is that he still can't see past appearances. There's the tapir itself, who only does anything because of Storm's kindness. Storm didn't treat the tapir as a god, something P is acutely aware and fearful of in those scenes, and that saved his life. The second is Storm himself.

I think it was smart to open the Hinterlands from Storm's perspective. It establishes a couple things, but is also early enough that you might forget. It immediately shows Storm's desire to learn and a bit of a perfectionist nature that life has not allowed him to pursue. (The way he writes numbers. Or perhaps drawing would be a better descriptor.) On top of that, Storm's inner monologue is considerably more complex than how he speaks, likely because of how people have reacted to him. P sees Storm as childlike due to how he's reacting to what P and the privilege he's taken for granted sees as mundane. However, Storm is quietly one of the more intelligent and empathetic characters in the series, and is experiencing something of a reverse childhood. He's had to be an adult from the day he was born, but P can't see past that, despite Storm's words always being exactly what he needs to hear. He even offers a clever solution in showing himself to P's dad if they don't find the hotel since he is a minotaur.

That storm performs a perfect spell when creating the bracelet shouldn't be surprising, but at that point we've spent significantly more time in P's head and from his point of view that it may come off that way. It's funny that the very first thing P does is build a bonfire with Storm, and yet he's so certain that Storm is a child that he can't see what Storm wanting to build a bonfire at the beach implies. Despite P's experience with the supernatural and being able to see not just things like the tapir's true nature, but many sights at once due to his feathers, it's fair to say that between the two them, P is the one that's blinded. It's only when Storm performs the ritual perfectly that he can finally start to see.

Rob MacWolf4 years ago(+3)

One of the things I'm gonna be analyzing really closely on my current playthrough is "what are the actual actions Storm and P do on their Beach Trip before they wind up finding the Hotel?" Because we see them from P's perspective, and he doesn't realize when the ritual starts. By the time Storm tells him what's up, they've already gone to the seashore which is about the most liminal space there is, bathed, purified with salt cause it's the ocean, waited till dusk, and built a bonfire.

Interesting to see if I can actually identify the entire ritual as Storm intends it.

cue5c4 years ago (1 edit) (+6)

I read a comment that someone felt Hinterlands III dragged, whereas I just wanted it to keep going. I loved the story up until that point, but every Hinterlands section is just overflowing with symbolism and double-meanings. I look forward to reading what you've found if you end up posting about it here. I hope you end up playing the ruthless route if you haven't already, because everything you're saying about the beach seems to be tied to Asterion and the labyrinth itself, especially its inability to produce salt.

I've been thinking about the nature of the labyrinth and how it appears to people. There can't only be a couple dozen people in the world who are truly lost, so I wonder how much finding it relies on Hermes appearance. I say this because we see P and Storm end up finding the hotel without ever bumping into Hermes, yet P's grandfather clearly ran into Hermes before finding it. Yet as the achievement so aptly puts it, we've rewritten the story of Io and Argos, as well as coated Storm in a scent that Asterion would find familiar and meaningful. (As well as Poseidon.) How much of what happens in Chapter 18, including Hermes vanishing and his reaction to P and Storm, is because of their actions in the Hinterlands? There's so many connections and convergences to explore.

ETA: Thinking about the Argos and Io achievement is making me appreciate just how queer this story is. It doesn't just feature gay characters in what would normally be straight roles, it's about found family, making the best of your situation, and ultimately breaking tradition and what's been placed on you to find what you decide is happiness. I think that's half of why this story resonates so much with me. It's not just giving me something I can't find most places, it's commenting on it and using traditional myths and stories to create our own.

Minoh Workshop4 years ago(+2)

That's a neat idea. Say, do you think someone could perform a ritual without knowing they are doing it?

Rob MacWolf4 years ago(+1)

Well, I suppose that would depend on the rules of the magic system and the purpose of the ritual. But in this case, I'd guess it's pretty likely that yes, you can?

In terms of the kinds of rituals P does, I think so? For one thing, Storm doesn't get told much about what's going on the first few times he helps P do something, and those don't seem to be at all diminished in effectiveness for it.

For another, it's a common thing in magic that's about re-enacting narratives to harness their power that certain actions get done by the correct person, the person who's authorized to do the action. Like, only the youngest prince can break the spell on the castle, in the fairy tale. So you might have rituals designed to make someone count, temporarily and via a loophole, as the correct person. Like... you do something to age all the other princes, suddenly you're the youngest prince, just long enough to break the spell. And the prince doesn't need to know what he's doing to do that, the enchantment only cares that he is, right now, for whatever reason, in fact the youngest.

For another thing: recursion. The way P talks about recursion, it sounds very much like something that can happen to you without your noticing. Therefore, it must be possible to do it without knowing you're doing it. But recursion fits the definition of a ritual: it's a set of meaningful actions that have a supernatural effect. So if it's possible to go through the motions of recursion unaware, and it still works, then that would imply it's possible to go through the motions of a ritual unaware, and it still works.

Rob MacWolf4 years ago (1 edit) (+4)

Ok, I said I was going to do it and I did. So here's the entire beach day ritual, as clearly as I can identify all the elements. Some of these might just be incidental, but if I could think of a way to interpret something as part of or an enhancement of the rite, I included it.

COMMEMORATIVE HOLIDAY: In celebration of Oscar's first paycheck

JOURNEY: Setting out to the seashore

SETTING INTENTION: "I'll bet... that by tomorrow mornin', at least somethin'll be cleared up, and you'll have a nice job offer" and as has been implied, in future builds, P will be hirable as hotel staff. Unclear if Storm meant this as encouragement, or if he actually intended this to be an Intention Setting, but the effects of the rite do bring exactly this about.

TO LIMINAL SPACE: the seashore, which is about the most liminal space there is.

BATHING: in the sea.

PURIFICATION WITH SALT: because the bathing is done in the sea.

USING THE MATERIALS AT HAND: the seashells. Note the bought one is rejected. Which makes the money spent on it wasted, and therefore a-

SACRIFICE/ALMS: the money wasted on the conch shell when Storm immediately finds a better one.

SHARED MEAL: the dumplings and fish and chips. It's not bread and wine, but there's no other narrative reason to mention the food and Asterion's more than once made a big deal of the ritual aspect of eating together.

MAKING A FIRE

IN AN ABANDONED LOT: another layer of liminal space, and the same kind P used to make his charm.

AT DUSK

TRADING LIFE STORIES: P volunteers an account of how he can't stop seeing the hotel, the very thing he's been avoiding telling Storm, unprompted once the fire is going. Note providence and/or synchronicity carries the steps forward once the ritual has some momentum, and Storm doesn't have to do this step.

It's at this point Oscar explains what he's been doing. P doesn't catch on till he's told.

THE ACTUAL RITUAL: salt, fire, amulet, and a spiral to be broken. note the amulet used was both an heirloom-a bead from the charm P's grandfather made him-and purpose built-among other beads Storm added. Storm mentions this as another symbol of broken recursion. Also reflects, unknown to Storm, the armlet MC summons for Asterion to test the hotel's fabrication powers. Synchronicity again, but also dipping into another narrative's power. Storm is playing YOUR role of "releaser from the bondage of recursions"

PERFORMED ON BEHALF OF ANOTHER: explicitly in the text

TRADING LIFE STORIES: then Oscar responds with the story in whose recursion P is trapped.

GUESSING P'S TRUE NAME: and that one carries some REAL hefty folkloric weight.

INVOKING HIS ROLE WITHIN THE NARRATIVE TO CLAIM AND CONTROL IT: "I'm Io, and yer the Panoptes." which arguably has even more weight. Note the implicit queer implications in claiming a role meant for a different gender, which in some traditions is also an enhancement of ritual work.

So, it's maybe not surprising that this is what worked to break through P's debts and reveal the hotel. About the only things that could have been done which wasn't was if the ritual had also been at a crossroads, and the Marian invocation that this thread was supposed to be about. (I guess a future update could always reveal the beach is named Salve Regina or something like that.)

I guess one could say there's a 'true love' element that could have been included too... but I'm willing to bet that future updates will reveal that yeah, that's there, retroactively, if you as the player steer correctly once Storm and P arrive at the hotel.

Minoh Workshop4 years ago(+2)

I debated whether or not I should say this, in the end I suppose it's worth it.

Situations like this are so much harder because most people were likely just born into this and didn't have a say in the matter. So they grew up with the expectation that this would always exist and possibly cut off other opportunities, if they existed in the first place.

You know, we're experiencing an unprecedented age of technological development in which we have incredible luxuries at our fingertips, while at the same time we see how horrible economic opportunities are for this generation. There are countries where young people can have a decent future by working simple, humble jobs, but for the most part this generation is facing the possibility of never retiring even if we get a higher education and what previous generations would consider a "decent job". I think that colors a bit the kind of conflict that people like Pedro face.

Now, at the same time, we also have an issue of the exodus from rural regions to urban centers... Which is often tragic as the opportunities in the big city aren't as great as people imagine, and also depopulates places which weren't too bad in the first place.

The thing with the Hinterlands and Oscar's relation to it is that... Well, for starters the in-game Hinterlands is based on real locations, but the thing with them is that if you look back on their past there was no lost glory. It was a bad place before colonization, remained bad afterwards and is still that way to this day. These are places with no viable economic activity, next to no unique culture anyone is attached to or appreciates, no opportunities for anyone.

In fact, the real life locations I was going off of were created because of political reasons — the fertile and productive coastal region was reserved for sugarcane plantations by law, so activities like raising cattle were pushed off to the arid hinterlands. Landowners would then hire poor, illiterate families to work themselves to death raising said cattle, often going into debt slavery as they had to pay their employers for basic supplies.

This is the context where Oscar was born in. Just being born there would be bad enough already, but he's even lower in the societal totem pole.

Again, the Hinterlands are based on real life locations... And I know people who came from there. There is no old glory or good times they can look back fondly to, and their attempts to do it end in tragedy. Whatever culture they carried with them, they have no love for it and throw it away as soon as they can... And, if given the chance, they absorb whatever enriching culture they can find around them, sometimes becoming profoundly, immensely articulate in the process. They just really were never given a chance in life, and will jump at any opportunity they're given.

So... Hopefully this adds a bit to your interpretation of Oscar. I'm glad you came out of the game with your interpretation. I think you'll like what we have in store for him. He is, fundamentally, a bright young man with a very fertile future — if someone gives him the chance.

cue5c4 years ago(+4)

I want to write a longer and more personal reply, but it'll take a minute, so before that I'll just say I appreciate this post and you being open about influences and your thoughts on them, Minoh. Like I mentioned in another post, I really appreciate how much things happening also double as a commentary instead of purely plot. There's a maturity to this story, and to be honest I'm thrilled there's a SFW version as that means I'll be able to share it with others who may initially be wary.

cue5c4 years ago(+3)

I mentioned previously that I descended from one of the families the King of Spain sent to California/Mexico. My ancestors settled and built one of the more famous cities that isn't LA. Unfortunately, it's built for tourists with wealth so there's almost no middle class and what exists are from people finding a way in 60+ years ago. I am never going to own a house unless family dies, and even then with step-siblings, that's iffy. My mother has tried to comfort me by saying that she has a good life insurance policy, so she knows I'll be okay. That's such a sick thought to find comfort in. That to have some semblance of financial security, it has to come at the cost of her not being there to see it. I don't even have the best relationship with her or any of my family, but I hate that this is the world we live in.

To be honest, I don't have a higher education, either. Once my parents found out they'd have to cosign a loan they backed out and I couldn't afford school. I ended up "lucking out" and finding a job that I should have needed a degree for, but already had the skills. The pay was clear why it didnt require a degree, no one with one would take it, but I got a job that sounded prestigious. Eventually, I met a guy and we moved in together. He had a degree and could have been making significantly more if he was in the right area, but had self-confidence issues. I helped him work through that and we came up with a plan where we could move somewhere with a good-paying job and I could go to school with the extra income. He said if we got married we'd have even more to work with.

We discussed places to look, one where we both knew people so I could maybe get part-time work, but he ended up applying to a city where I knew no one. He got a job that started at $130k a year, something that was and still is incomprehensible to me. I wasn't thrilled about the area, because I knew what would happen, but I couldn't say no. Essentially, when we got there and he realized his coworkers were making as much or more than me, he suddenly didn't want to get married anymore. I didn't have a job and was having a hard time finding one as it was mostly just tech people there and I didn't have the education for it. He never invited coworkers over and told me it was because he thought they'd be embarrassed by me. We eventually broke up, but I tried changing everything about myself in order to stay because I knew that I couldn't go to school otherwise, and failing that there was financial stability with him. I started having massive anxiety attacks when he was away and not having lived in a city, I couldn't get used to how crowded and claustrophobic it was. Unsurprisingly, it broke down and I've never felt less human. I ended up moving back in with my parents for the first time since I was 19, convinced I was worthless.

So even though the experiences are vastly different, I empathize with Oscar quite a bit. Likewise, I empathize with Pedro, too. I was let go from that job I had for almost 7 years because by staying there too long I was becoming too expensive, despite currently making less than what I eventually made just doing retail after breaking up with the guy I was going to marry.

On top of that, I have one strength and it's one I find more of a burden than anything, and that's empathy. I am very good at peeling away at a person and finding what they're afraid to show others, only to accept them unconditionally. I can mold myself to almost anyone, but it leads me open to both manipulate and be manipulated. This was much more of an issue as a teenager, but there's sometimes still this fear that any action you're taking is either doing something solely for your own gain or making someone do something because of how you've treated them and not because it's what they actually want. And even if you know they want to follow you, there's a fear of dependency when you know your battles with mental health. You can love someone, but are you going to be the someone they love when they need it?

So I understand both of them, and somewhere between the two I find myself. That's not something I find often. Usually when I do it's almost solely a negative portrayal, but there is so much love and thought put into the them that I don't think I can properly convey how much it's meant to me. No character in this story is perfect, but they're all what Asterion is afraid to recognize in himself as human. I like how they're all aware of their shortcomings and how that awareness can sometimes lead to further issues because of that fear. It's why centering this story around trust makes it stand out, as sometimes trusting yourself or others is the hardest thing in the world to do.

itch.io

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