Knave 2e Adventure Game Jam

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Knave 2e Adventure Game Jam community

Disappointed that "AI art" is permitted Locked

A topic by Ida Ailes created 95 days ago Views: 1,845 Replies: 22

This topic was locked by Questing Beast 93 days ago

I appreciate the discussion everyone, but I think this thread has exhausted its usefulness. Feel free to take the conversation elsewhere.

Viewing posts 1 to 6

Ida Ailes95 days ago (2 edits) (+30)(-10)

I was immediately excited to hear about this, but I’m disappointed to see that the use of AI generated images is accepted ‘if disclosed’ (disclosed how? where? how clearly?). As an artist who’d otherwise be excited to incorporate hand drawn illustrations in my entry, I dunno what to say other than this sucks and is exhausting.

It’s not even about the fact that that I’ll have less of an edge as an artist (I just wanna join this to practice adventure design), but when a pretty high profile designer with a platform shows this kind of lax acceptance of generative AI, it’s absolutely going to shift the Overton window in the exacct opposite direction any kind of indie artist wants.

What’s the logic behind this? How do the benefits possibly outweigh the negatives?

Questing BeastHost95 days ago(+16)(-13)

Hi Ida, its allowed because I don't have a strong opinion on AI art, as long as the author states that is it AI-generated in the product.

I think hand-made art usually looks much better than AI art though, and I've added a note to the jam encouraging submitters to use that if they can.

Thursday Garreau95 days ago(+26)(-7)

I think it's a real bummer to allow people to use algorithms built on mass uncredited theft from other creatives. Isn't the whole thrust of a game jam to make something yourself?

River Ray95 days ago(+23)(-3)

The point isn't about the perceived quality of AI-generated artwork but the fact that the tools like Midjourney and whatnot have been built on databases of unethically-sourced and uncredited artwork (or at the very least, being totally opaque about where it all comes from) of many human artists, not to mention the infrastructure that powers them being particularly ecologically-unfriendly.

Authors disclaiming the usage of such generative artwork does not change that fact, and it's frustrating to see it being tolerated and normalized like that.

Ida Ailes95 days ago (2 edits) (+27)(-9)

I can’t fault you for not taking a personal interest in the topic, but as a prominent voice in an indie creative niche I really think this is something you’ve gotta have an opinion on, assuming supporting likeminded creators is somewhere on your list of ideals. Doubly so as an author who I can only assume wants to keep commissioning real human artists for your future work.

I appreciate the requirement for AI images to be disclosed, but that truly is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to issues with it. I don’t know if this lack of an opinion is just because you haven’t read up on it, but if that’s the case, I can guarantee your community is full of people far more eloquent and educated than me who could give you some very good explainers on why AI image generation is considered such a crisis among independent artists.

csaunders95 days ago (3 edits) (+5)(-2)

The recently closed Shadowdark game jam had a similar disclosure requirement. If you’d like to see what those disclosures looked like, I think you can still download many of the entries for free.

~~I believe 3 of the top 5 used AI art.~~ Only one of the top 5 used AI art. But you can peruse many of the entries to see how they disclosed their use of AI art.

I’m also not a fan of AI art but the cats out of the bag and even if people were told they couldn’t, there’d be a good chance people still would and would have some plausible deniability.

The stuff done by humans is way more consistent in style though, and if you are an artist I look forward to seeing what y’all make.

I’m debating on doing this jam as well, but probably just won’t have any original art as I have no skills in that department. The best I can do is hack together public domain art in an image editor and apply filters to it :’)

Cri95 days ago(+6)

To correct this misnomer, only one of the top 5 in the Shadowdark used AI image generation. The other 4 used public domain or hand-drawn images.

csaunders94 days ago(+3)

Shit! I’ve updated my comment to reflect that.

Ida Ailes94 days ago (1 edit) (+8)(-3)

That’s disheartening to see but at least it makes this make a bit more sense.

Though it also proves my point that apathy towards generative AI just helps shift public sentiment in the direction of acceptance. I’ve seen Baron use AI images in his videos so I’m not surprised he’d write that rule, and Ben not changing that just carries over Baron’s acceptance. And now we’re here, but we really didn’t need to be.

Ethics aside, I’m sure that if you enter, your submission will be far more interesting and unique with the use of edited public domain art. Limitation promotes creativity — not to mention you’ll actually have a chance to practice those skills! That’s what I always thought jams like this were for.

(Or alternatively, I’m sure nothing is gonna stop anyone from asking artist friends to collab)

Kasdahl94 days ago (1 edit) (+4)(-15)

I understand your point of view regarding AI image generation. But I think it’s a tool, especially for people who have zero drawing or editing skill. I agree that jams are here to learn do some new things, but people like me (I’m a developer with no drawing skills) would never be able to participate to this kind of jam without having access to some sort of tool to illustrate the story. And for me the learning part of this jam would be to focus on the writing of a story, not learning how to use photoshop or other illustration tools. I’m pretty sure you would agree that for a perfect newbie in this area it would take a lot of time to do a very simple thing in PS.

Of course, if I were to submit something, I would priorise using open source content or try to do my own things in a first place, but working with AI can also help and inspire. I would probably ask somebody to do the art if I were to do a commercial product. But for a game jam I don’t think it would be possible to spend 1000€/$ or more.

As the jam is about writing a RPG story, I think we could miss the creation of people with excellent game design ideas because they don’t have access to illustration skills. For me this would also be disheartening.

As I said I’m a developer and there’s tool to generate code (that probably also comes from shady places without really caring about copyrights)… but I think this also helps people with less development skills to submit entries for other types of game jam (video games), maybe people who are more focused on design and illustration and less on code.

(Please keep in mind that I’m not an native English speaker, so my sentence might not be exactly like I would have phrase them in my mother tongue, and I hope I didn’t offend you in any way, I’m just trying to give another point of view on this very difficult topic that is AI 😊)

Thursday Garreau94 days ago(+13)(-3)

There are millions of images in the public domain that you can use without modifying. I think doing that makes a lot more sense than using tools that can only function when allowed to steal from countless artists without giving them credit, and being a new designer doesn't give you a free pass from people who worked very hard to get good at making art for real.

The_Chemist94 days ago(+3)

genuine question. I use AI art to make character portraits for myself because I cannot draw well enough to make them and I certainly don't have the time to learn. But if there are troves of public domain art I could use, I'd rather do that. Where can I find it? Would I be able to get post-apocalyptic, scifi, cyberpunk, or steampunk character art in the public domain?

Thursday Garreau94 days ago(+6)

Openverse lets you search through a Creative Commons image database, with checkboxes for images you're allowed to modify and/or use commercially. Unsplash has a license that enables commercial use. "Public domain" and "Creative Commons" are the magic words you're looking for here. If you want very specific things, 15 minutes of simple photobashing can still create incredibly evocative work.

The_Chemist93 days ago(+5)

thanks! I'll check it all out.

Thursday Garreau93 days ago(+2)

I appreciate you looking for non-AI alternatives! Every little bit helps, and creatives do best when they act like a team, IMO.

tamewhale94 days ago(+16)(-5)

I’m in a similar position. I was already thinking up ideas until I saw the rules in detail. It’s odd to me that “AI art” is allowed but not “AI” for writing. If this is just a tool with no ethical problems, why the distinction? It seems to me that people devalue the work of artists and don’t mind their work being stolen or plagiarised en masse but think that writing is somehow more sacred and should be protected. For people who say they can’t afford an artist for a game jam, I would say then don’t use one. Personally I would prefer amateurish attempts that reflect the origins of this hobby as something shared between friends. And for those who say it is already here and there is no stopping it, there are plenty of crimes or unethical decisions that are easy to do or make but that does not absolve us from doing the right thing. “Everyone else does it” is for lemmings.

csaunders94 days ago(+2)(-1)

I wonder if it’s because the AI generated documents tend to be super rambly. I’ve seen some adventures posted to r/osr that was AI generated and it was impossible to understand.

No layout, no formatting, really long paragraphs that don’t really say anything, etc.

Or it at least provides some barrier to entry since you’d need to sit down and actually write something.

Cri94 days ago(+8)

One of the grading metrics is writing. None of them is for art. It's not an ethical question. It's a "I want to see the adventure you WRITE!" question. The art is kind of irrelevant to that end. Sure art helps make the product look professional, but you don't need it. And to that end, AI images make the product look unprofessional.

Knave 2e has plenty of spreads with no art. Ben's adventure The Waking of Willowby Hall is practically artless (just nix the portraits). Art is icing on the cake that is your adventure. In contrast, you can't turn in an adventure with no writing . It's absolutely required.

PreciousD94 days ago(+17)(-6)

"I use AI art because I can write but can't draw" is not any more acceptable to me than, "I use AI writing because I can draw but can't write."

The_Chemist94 days ago(+8)(-16)

correct. Those are both acceptable. But this is a writing competition, not an art competition.

Flaming Brain GamesSubmitted94 days ago(+11)

But that's not entirely true... if someone has eye-catching art in their submission it typically will get more views, looks more professional, is seen as "better" than something with amateur art or no art at all.

In terms of the judging criteria it has to do with usability. If the art adds to the adventure, can set a mood, help the GM and players visualize... then it helps.

And if the art is AI generated, some take issue with it, while others do not. The reality is that many people participating in a game jam may not have the time to comb through all of the fine print, so they may not even see if it is AI art or not.

PreciousD93 days ago(+10)(-1)

Perhaps I was unclear. I find neither acceptable.

Invisible Cuts93 days ago (1 edit) (+22)(-12)

Frankly, Beast, you are a leader in this community. Ban AI. It's making it hell for creators.
1) It's a constant pressure of performance to compete with stolen art from 1000 artists.
2) AI uses so much energy it creates server needs that are actually bad for the environment.
3) The disregard for your fellow creators is loud and clear when you use it or let people use it in your community.

Lost Bay did it. I hope some will participate to their jam in stead. https://itch.io/jam/all-flesh-is-surplus

For all the fellow creators who use AI, please stop. I will respect a word document with 0 images way more than a beautiful document filled with AI images. And a lot of your cocreators will probably feel the same way. If you need help, ask people in this community, so many of us have a profound love for creation and cooperation.

Questing BeastHost locked this topic 93 days ago

This topic was locked by Questing Beast 93 days ago