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Unending

A turn based combat puzzle anthology · By st33d

Feature Spitballing Sticky

A topic by st33d created Jan 19, 2020 Views: 841 Replies: 36
Viewing posts 1 to 27
Developer

Post your unreasonable requests and far-fetched ideas in here please.

Current dreamy features I am already considering:

  • play around with turn speed based on attack, doors, empty area, etc.
  • tool-tip when you mouse-over glyphs
  • map painter - faster debugging, design discussion
  • splitter enemy - spawns 3 weaker nearby
  • slow enemy - moves every 2nd turn (self stun?)
  • mutator - transforms adjacent (how?)
  • duplicator - a spawner that spawns spawners
  •  diagonal turner - moves diagonally
  • ai trail - leave breadcrumbs behind player to enable consistent kiting
  •  save full replay - I would basically need the initial PRNG seed and a list of the moves the player made (up, down, left, right), the logic-engine can iterate to any desired turn, it's that fast

My unreasonable suggestion: game modes.

  • time attack
    • complete as many levels in seconds, 
    • or complete levels as fast as possible, 
    • or you have x seconds to make a move before the computer moves for you
  • limited undos
    • player is awarded with undos for
      • making combos
      • food count exceeds some threshold (maybe start off with less than max food and increase max food threshold)
      • etc.
Developer(+1)

I think I'll have to pencil in a turn-speed setting if one wants to apply speed running rules.

I'm often tempted by more undos. I've got to work on saving and loading your current game first - need to see how all these clothes fit in the suitcase sort of thing.

This is a ux thing, and maybe mostly applicable because I played ending, and didn't carefully read the release notes on this, but I think a little help to know that death isn't final would be welcome. 

Developer

I've added a post death "press any key" prompt to my todo list. It was there in my mind, but adding monsters was more fun to do.

TBF I also need to not point out Undo on checkmate when the previous turn only had 1 move that didn't result in death. It happens often enough that I just need to say you're busted - it's over.

(1 edit)

° The Red X that shows you where you can't move shows up a little too slowly for my liking, but that's just a minor nitpick.

° It's also a bit annoying when you die or get checkmated because you can't see behind the level blocks, and the enemies trap you on that turn, then kill you the next. Though, this is also minor.

• Pushable objects?

• An enemy that takes up 2 spaces?

• An enemy that shoots a projectile?

• An enemy that stands still and tries to run away if the player gets too close?

• Picking up food while already at the maximum food count turns the excess food into a projectile?

• Conveyor belts?

• Water to work in the same way as food, but obtained through a different manner?

Thank you for taking a gander at my dumb ideas, and I really love this game.

Developer

Will sit on the Xs till someone else complains as well. Or I might add a setting for them to instantly fade in. Will add a fade out-in to the end of the animation so you can see underneath. But I also plan on adding a mouse-over tool tip.

Wall-allies can already push objects. Wall-player is already possible but it needs to have its own food clock and I've yet to figure that out.

Multi-enemies are cool. I have added it to my todo list. I might be able to use the code that operates hooks to do it.

Bullet enemies are already a thing. About level 4 I think. A bullet-spawner is effectively a turret.

Flee enemy seems like a given. But it needs something else to spice it up - a reason to chase it.

Conveyor belts require a second layer of data. Right now it's completely flat, with two rectangles that define a container around it. I already have the scroll-block working though. That shoves an entire row or column of glyphs - it wraps around the current room it's in. I just haven't tried it with doors yet, because it's going to be pretty bizarre rolling a door into the middle of the room and opening it (the logic still opens a room outside of the current room, it walks from the door's direction till it hits an edge).

That's a very interresting game, but it gets difficult to understand what is going on very quick. Maybe is it more interresting that good now? (Ending was easier to get)

  •  A way to get a description of the different traits would be nice (what it does, what it looks like)
  • Limited undo ? (as proposed above)
  • Some crazyness : when a level is created over an old one, all previous objects are still there, but with added traits.
     
  • Stake : if one trains element touches it, it gets stuck
  • Backward : when something hits it, everything, except that thing, goes one step back in time (and objects resurect)
Developer

Tool tips when you mouse-over an element are on the to-do list.

Not keen on variable undo. Undo is a bad reward. It's the wrong message - for being good at something you are treated like you are bad at it. If you carry on being good then the undos are worthless. Undo is for learning. I will likely add the option to turn it off, but definitely not a mechanic to get it back.

Levels are never generated on top of each other because the code requires to the rooms to be separate for a lot of mechanics to work. Duplicating a room as part of a level progression might be an idea though.

There are no trains - they are implicit due to the HOOK passive (press P to open the editor during a game). There is only a single layer of data, no floor, no sky. This rules out a lot of cool things like jumping over stuff and pressure pads. Maybe something could take away passive abilities like HOOK and WALL - but it would be very boring with no passive abilities around. Or maybe it could trade them - unsure what would be good. Ideally I'd like to be able to do an ally and enemy version, unlike the scroll tile which doesn't really work for enemies.

The level state doesn't keep a record of previous turns (the undo stack is just a pile of level states). So time travel isn't possible. The level data is simple and clean and must stay that way. If we had an enemy that changes state over time, then we could target that property. That's probably something that needs to be made - an element that switches behaviours.

Ah right.
Ok,  some unreasonable suggestion : "conversion". That ability would convert the objet it touches to its color (from bleu to orange, and vice-versa)

"Generic conversion" : conversion given to a grey object, it would swap from to bleu to orange, and orange to bleu.

(1 edit)

Bullets
I love  bullets ! The problem though, is that they tend to die very quick...
A bullet launcher would be great !
There could be a variety of them, based on their shooting frequency (1, 2, 3, 4 turns), and directions  (1, 2, 3 or 4 directions).

(1 edit)

Room connections
Maybe could the connections between rooms have more variety : In ending it was a wall with one opening only. Right now in Unending it is a fully opened wall.
But we could  have different styles of connections :

  • now wall (unending style)
  • 1 one small opening (endind style)
  • A large opening
  • doted line (wall-empty-wall-empty...)
(2 edits)

Giving purpose
Very quick, (for example after reaching level 25), I feel a lack of purpose. Ending was great at making you wish to reach level 8.
I don't know what you make the player wish to keep playing (and staying faithfull to the name "Unending"). Maybe through counting (a displaying on a screen) the number of creature combinations the player has met, or interracted with (bumped into, pushed, switched placed or killed).

When the player reaches increasinlgy larges numbers of different creatures, he could be rewarded with something (a random text ?).

And it would turn the player into a hunter. (I want to catch that bullet ! I want to make that encased explosive and  hooked arrow multiplayer explode...)

Developer

There is already a bullet launcher - the spawner-bullet. I don't want to make new elements that repeat what's already there. This gives me an idea for a cluster bullet however - like the cluster-turner.

I have already considered other exit types - they could be shielded. They could be ally-doors that have to be released by scroll blocks or fighting. I am considering a key-passive for the puzzle mode (you must kill all key enemies to unlock the door). The key might be a good addition to endless.

The endless mode is not finished and neither is the game. The progression is a ramp upwards - whereas desirable progression should be like a sine wave. Developing an algorithm for this is very complicated and takes a long time. I have no intention of letting one finish the endless - you can finish ending, this experience already exists and does not need repeating. I am however considering achievements that one can search for, or quests. It's important to investigate a game experience that has no win state. I understand that a lot of people will be angry or upset that they cannot achieve closure. The point is to keep researching mechanics and play to find a space where a win condition does not need to exist. I don't expect this to be easy or quick to resolve.

I have just tried the PC-Alpha version. I love the evolution !

But now, I wish even more than before to have a bestiary... (record the "creatures" I have interracted with). I could include a nice metaplay !

  • Knowing how many different creature you have interracted with in your sessions (and maybe keep that number as an highscore)
  • Carry on that bestiary from one game to another. (It would be even more fun if the player could name those creatures. And even share the names with a server. But I might go too far there ... ;-) )
  • Get missions such as finding a specific creature. The player would get some help : in this mode, next nevel would and evolution of present level with just one more or less mecanism. Some info would be given on the door to hing which mecanism would be added or removed.

Well... Now back to playing !

Developer (1 edit) (+1)

There's no death log with undo so I guess I need to make a pause screen that feels like a notebook.

However, I feel like you've hit on a point that the endless mode needs more intimacy. How else would you get to know the beasts. It's currently like a sweaty puzzle nightclub. But there's no chill out room. Just corridors full of noise till you hit another dance floor. Maybe ally-doors could help if I buried them under the right elements.

I like the picture 😅 "sweaty puzzle nightclub"


Maybe on the dungeon screen, a "max level reached" would be a simple start. For exemple, right now, I am stuck at level 10 surrounded with "walled walkers". And don't see any obvious way to move forward unless going many levels back

Hello ! Some new unreasonable suggestions :

Agressive Roller : i fell that rollers are not at their full potential yet. You can throw them. But they only swap with "them".

What if a new type, "Agressive Roller", did change faction on activation ? This you could active them, then they would turn into "us" and be able to hit or attract "them".

And vice versa for agressive rollers starting with "us" faction : ennemies would be able to send them at is.

Developer (1 edit) (+1)

The team-swap is an interesting twist on the converter's attack, and the roller is a good candidate for it as it requires the activation to prevent it being invincible.

I do wonder if there's other applications though. A reverse-converter would get insta-murdered mostly, but for key puzzles it might be relevant.

Or if one wanted a flaming barrel type of attack, then maybe there's room for a piece that spawns bullets when it has an empty line to an enemy.

I fear the aggressive roller would actually be more of a friendly roller as it would just get punched back to you, given that rollers only die when hit from behind when rolling. Or maybe the variant wouldn't and it would die on its first bump - then you'd get your exploding flaming barrel. I will probably try out a few variations as there are indeed a few loose threads to pull at here.

And what about neutral roller, which push  any faction object (them and us) ?


Other suggestions : rollers could get destroyed when hitting a foe or a neutral. Of if they are mixed with a bomb, they would explode.


Converter powerup : every "them" turn into "us", and vice versa.

(3 edits)

Some other suggestions :

  • In endless, why not having rooms (levels) with a specific field of view (such as in the other dungeons : different activation range, dark, minefield) ? It would be activated when breaking the door, and until next door is broken
  • Endless is described as a meditative experience. I don't find it very meditative. But what if there were subdungeons (have you played desktop dungeons ?), as places to relax a bit. ie you are teleported in a small room. Maybe a place devoid of ennemies (or some powerups), and something interesting, such as a statue of the object which killed you the most. Counting player kills is not that trivial in endless, however a rule could be that in checkmate every item threatening the player gets a kill. Also, when starting an undo streak, every item threatening the player on first undo gets a kill.  The fun part would be even friendly items might threat you (a bullet destroying door and erasing you door. Or a friendly bomb). If you die of starvation, you are the treat. I feel that such rooms with this statue would be a  fun, interesting, and relaxed places for meditation

Select player(walker/turner..) for endless.

Developer

I could have it cycle every time you play it, then you'd just need to spam restart for your choice.

(This isn't unreasonable or far fetched, but I'll allow it.)

(1 edit)

Thanks. It would be better, but tbh it doesn't make too much difference to me.

I guess there are considerations/intentions behind the 'random player at start' design?

But still, I hope one day there'll be a separate player selection screen.

(4 edits) (+1)

Some suggestion/ideas:

1 # bestiary

As @vfabien21 already mentioned, I wish there's a place where you can see all different kinds of enemy you've encountered so far.

Sometimes, I just want to admire those cute monsters and see how they differ from each other. They're so beautifully designed, just looking at them and their animations gives me pleasure.


2 # treasure crate

When killed, it drops a random power-up.

A) instant power-up

These ones take effect immediately upon picking up, and they are only effective in the room(or level?) in which you pick them up.

invincible: Enemy won't attack you; they just follow you.

invisible: Enemy can't see you.

walk through walls:

   * You get to the other side of walled-neutral/enemy if you try to step into them.

   * Any walled-enemy will swap place with you if they try to attack you.

   * You die instantly if you got yourself into the blank void and in such cases there should be no undo to make player move more carefully.

B) carry-on power-up

You can carry them as long as you want.

You use them when you need to.

nuke: Blow up all except you in 3*3 range.

mine: Spawn a friend mine behind your next move.

respawn: Spawn a friend respawn behind your next move.

C) power-up for enemies

spawner: Transform into a spawner.

mask: You can see there's enemy, but you can't see what type it is.


3 # neutral count-down mine

A mine with a turn-counter.


4 # aggressive friends

Currently I see all friends are passive, they just copy your move. 

So I think it would be interesting to add some aggressive friends.

They have two states: passive/aggressive.

By default, they're passive.

When they're passive,

  * They copy your move.

  * You can hit them to make them aggressive, it'll cost you a bit of energy.

When they're aggressive,

  * You can walk through them.

  * They move on their own and try to kill any enemies within their own attacking range, except they won't open doors for you.

  * They need energy to move. The hit you wake them up makes them full of energy, and they fall back to passive state if energy is used up. Then you can wake them up again.

  * Each enemy they kill rewards both you and themselves energy.

  * If their attacking range is cleared & they're within your range, they'll try to gather towards you.

(1 edit)

Link effect: If a unit with this effect dies, all units that are linked to this unit will die as well (very useful for boss fights and an exclusive dungeon to protect a walker ally)

Player-only rule: if a unit linked to your character leaves your reach, your character die too

Corruption/Molten effect: This unit leaves dangerous traces wherever it goes (Disappears after a few turns), can be applied to any unit

(1 edit)

??? Effect: Unit appearance and properties are not shown when far away (It only shows ??? instead), applied only on enemies

Developer

Originally in Ending the allies moved by themselves and everyone complained that they didn't like it. The issue comes from the fact that it has nothing to do with your actions - it's just something going on that you have no control over.

If something did act independantly of you, it would also need inverted behaviour when converted. That's kind of hard to imagine, unless the whole point is that you only control it when it's an enemy. Which could be interesting I guess.

-

I will consider a bestiary, but it's far more work than it sounds and not fun to work on.

(1 edit)

Hey developer, I was wondering, how interesting would it be to be able to control two walkers independently (possibly even by two players), or do you think such a thing is unnecessary since it will slow down the game a bit? 

(Consider that both are linked; if one dies, the other dies.)

Developer

I've considered a 2 player dungeon, but I think for it to work I would need each player's active area to animate independantly.

In an early version of Six Match, other players would lock up parts of the board that they triggered movement in. This allows one to have a turn based game with multiple players.

It's on the list of possible dungeons, I've just yet to think of a way to implement it.

(2 edits)

Door: New object that change its state between opened and closed after X turns (can be customized), units can pass though when its open, the door will not close when there is a unit inside it

Agressive Effect: Kills any unit inside once it closes, applied to doors only

Linked door effect: links the door's state to another one, this door will not close or open if the other doesn't close or open (Very interesting to make double doors or tunnels) applied to Doors only

well I didn't bought the game yet so most of my suggestions look dumb but I think it would be very interesting if you make a dungeon where you have to save all allied walkers and be very careful where you move them since your life is linked to them, if an allied dies, you will die aswell

Developer

All suggestions look dumb until they actually work.

There's a least a dozen ideas I've shot down in this thread, only to figure out a way to do them in a years time. I appreciate all contributions, thanks.

These are the last ones I can think of so far

(Gadget) Spear: Adds a spear to one side of the character, giving 1+ attack range on that side. 

(Effect) Forcefield: the enemy will become invencible for 2 turns every 2 turns, applied to enemies. 

(Gadget) Crossbow: Adds an arrow to one side of the character. The enemy will automatically shoot whenever you enter its range, and the player can fire the crossbow by pressing space (One use only), (Explosive arrows maybe?)

(Gadget) Shield: Protects one side of the character, allows you to push characters on that side. Does not work on wall enemies. 

(Effect) Molten: Leaves a trail of fire wherever it passes. Upon death, it shatters and then regenerates after a few turns. Standing on its pieces slows regeneration. Applied to enemies. 

(Effect) Shadow: The character remains in the shadows, ignoring any character or wall that doesn't have shadow effect; however, characters without shadows ignore them as well. It can be applied to anything. 

(Effect) Light: The character glows, ignoring any character or wall that doesn't have the Light effect. However, characters without light can also ignore them. It can be applied to anything. 

(Object) Shadow Totem/Light Totem: Changes your character's state to Shadow or Light to ignore certain things. (Perharps you can make an interesting dungeon with this)

(+1)

I think lasers could be a good addition, like a block with a barrel that shoots a laser. Depending on whether the block is fixed or not, you can push or rotate it by walking along the side of the block. 

There could also be a receiver for this laser that, upon receiving the laser, would disable energy shields and make certain things killable. Mirrors would be nice as well. 

(The laser itself doesn't kill any units; the unit will block the laser from passing through it.)