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No more excuses please

A topic by Gidaeon created May 25, 2023 Views: 2,021 Replies: 23

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Gidaeon1 year ago (1 edit) (+1)

For a while now, most (not all) of the Devs on here that have their games "Hosted on a third-party site", refuse to upload to the itch.io app.

When asked why, they state that itch.io's upload size limit has been reduced and there's nothing they can do about it.

Well after a long time coming, I'm calling BS.

Now I know there's Devs on here that have issues with uploading to the app. I understand. That's your business, you do you. However, those of you that use the excuse given above, you are either doing something wrong, or are lazy.

I have a few examples that explain.

that I just downloaded from the app, as well as: Hero's Harem Guild v0.1.2.2 for Windows/Linux: 11 GB, and Harem Hotel v0.16.2 PC/Android: 10 GB.

Wish there was a 'Spoiler' option to save some space...meh, oh well, my posts tend to become books anyway.

Now please note that I have nothing against these Games in general, they are in one of my collections, and I rotate through re-installing and playing because I enjoy them.

I just don't get why the lazy ones use the excuse of '...that itch.io's upload size limit has been reduced and there's nothing they can do about it.', when that's just been proven not to be the case.

redonihunter1 year ago(+2)

That is not an excuse. I believe the limit is 1GB. You can request that your limit is increased, but I do not know the criteria for that. I naivly assume, it might entail having paid stuff that is not having a revenue share of 0% and being popular among users.

Many devs do not seem to understand how to compress their game effectifly. I once saw one using a self extracting exe. And that exe used an inefficient method. A vanilla zip was smaller and a 7z self extractor was like 70% of the size. And don't get me started on image compression. I was curious now, and looked at some pictures of a vn. That dev used png. My test file was 1700KB. After saving it as a 100% jpg, it was only 1000KB. And with a 95% jpg it was only 370KB. That is a factor of 5. For a change that is not going to be noticed.

The real unexcuseable thing is to have bloated file sizes for no reason.

dachshundstudios1 year ago

That’s an excellent explanation. However, itch.io does NOT offer any of the solutions you mentioned. Maybe itch.io should have a link with suggestions of things you mentioned. Because to inexperience and new developers, it does feel like itch.io is leaving them high and dry.

redonihunter1 year ago

I did not understand.

Why or rather how should itch "offer" common sense solutions to developers? if something is too big, you make it smaller. if you do not know how to make something smaller, you learn. Developers learn to tackle all sorts of problems. Or at least in theory. Many just use third party hosters.

Of course it would be nice of itch to link to a guide for amateur developers. That some users have problems to even unpack a rar, ok, but they are users. If you can compile code into a game and call yourself a developer, i expect more.

Or maybe is the problem that it does not even occur to some people that they could make the same effective quality in smaller size? People that never had to deal with size limits, like the size of a cd-rw, or running out of disk space for the operating system or even their smartphone. Same here. Why bother making stuff smaller, if you can just use another hoster or try to appeal to itch to give you more space.

If that is the case, it would be in best interest of itch to have some link to a guide and a best practise recommendation for first time and recurring uploaders, like do not use lossless image file format for photo like stuff. Having a lossless master version, ok, but not for roll out and distribution.

dachshundstudios1 year ago(+2)

If that’s your standard for developers that’s fine. I’m not here to change your mind. All I’m saying is that it wouldn’t be the worst thing to have “More info” link in the “file is too large” pop up window. That way only the people who would need to see it would and only the people who needed help would click the link.

Something like this:

redonihunter1 year ago(+1)

Good Idea.

dachshundstudios1 year ago

Thank you!

Arekku1 year ago(+3)

It's not BS. There is a size limit and if you are above it you cannot upload.

Your options in this case is to:

Ask support to increase your upload limit, which they may or may not do depending on criteria we do not know.
Use less space
Use a third party upload site

The file size limits are, as of last time I checked:

Standard web	1 GB
Butler	2 GB
Standard Increase	4 GB
Non standard increase	5+ GB

The standard increase is given to anyone that asks for it, the criteria for the non standard increase is unknown but believed to be difficult and being granted one is a privilege that should not be taken for granted.

Gidaeon1 year ago

Sooooo what? itch has a grandfather clause or something to not require current, already way over that limit, games when they're still having updates uploaded to them?

I just edited my OP to show more clearly what the GB sizes are for the 3 games I listed, and I'd previously linked the other two games for people to see with their own eyes.

If that's not BS, then please explain why over-sized games are still available and uploaded to.

Arekku1 year ago(+2)

The vast majority of games on the site is below 1 GB. Keeping your game below 1 GB can be hard at times, which is why butler allows you a size limit of 2 GB. If this still isn't enough you can ask support to increase your limit to 4 GB. 4 GB is a lot for an indie game.

The site is very generous to offer this much space without asking for anything in return.

The only people who appear to have an issue with the 4 GB size limit are making yet another Ren'Py prerendered 3D debauchery visual novel, taking no responsibility for the resulting file size and relying on others to solve that problem for them, most commonly megaupload.

So in a way, the upload limit is what keeps itch.io from becoming a den of degeneracy.

redonihunter1 year ago

i believe, in theorey, if you use butler and users use the app, the download and upload can be reduced for updates.so that might explain the higher limit for butler.

Gidaeon1 year ago(+1)

Ok I give up.

While I appreciate the helpful info given, it has no application to this.

At just over 6 GB Lucky Paradox MAY have squeaked by the permissions. However Hero's Harem Guild is 11 GB, and Harem Hotel is 10 GB. Both of them can be installed through the App, and haven't needed to use third-party sites like MEGA (who suck ass anyway). So either those two were grandfathered in because they were before the new limits took place, or the criteria for increases is actually way too easy.

Despite this, everyone is referring back to the limit of 4 GB - 5 GB MAX (with special dispensation).

The whole point of this post was WHY are developers so lazy that they choose to use third-party sites when their games are less than 2 GB, while others that are honking way big at or above 10 GB have no problems installing through the App?

redonihunter1 year ago(+1)

5+ means more than 5, including 11.

You complain that devs use 3rd party hosters, I get it. Now go and complain that some devs only put demo version here and try to make you become patreon of their content... where you can download from their mega links ;-)

the excuse with the size limit is valid. Decreasing game size is not a priority if youcan host elsewhere and especially, if you offer the build on other sites as well, like patreon

redonihunter1 year ago

it already is explained. you can go over the limit with itch permission. how, when or why permission was given is not relevant. You know if a developer obviuosly has increased limit, if they have bigger files.

FearCode1 year ago (3 edits)

What's the problem in downloading apps from "third-party" sites? Auto-update? (that's an honest question, I don't have itch.io app)

redonihunter1 year ago

Transfer limits,both download quota on users end and quota on file hosters end, and trust issues. Also browser issues.

That you cannot use the itch app to update is another issue for those that use this.

FearCode1 year ago (2 edits)

hum... so by "third-party" he means free file sharing services, yeah I get that, it's pretty crappy and usally not very safe either.

So I'd like to know if people like him would be ok with downloading from an actual game website, taking into account that an automatic update companion app would be shipped with the game (that's what I'm planning to do with my game in case it ever takes over 2GB anyways).

redonihunter1 year ago

Oh, it is safe. you get the link from the dev, after all. and only crappy if you push your users to their download limits or your service shuts your content down for you exceeding your own quota. I saw that happening on google shares.

What I deem rather unsafe, untrusty and a no-go is an update companion of a mere indie game. And most aaa games for that matter. Essentially bundling a download app for the app I want? Nah. I might trust a small indie game dev to cobble up a fun game. But managing a downloader and updater, complete with hosting as well? So I get infected with malware, when his update server gets hacked? Or he messes up my system with some update scheduler? And also trusting the dev not to use his infrastructure to secretly phone home some "innocent" usage data or do other questionable things, just because he has a bad day.

The problem i see, this is games we talk about. not an everyday usage tool like vlc. Or an online game. The need for an updater companion for an offline game makes me suspicious. a button "check for updates" might be ok, especially if it just opens a browser.

Using the devs homepage would be ok. For me. But I am curious, how op sees this.

FearCode1 year ago (1 edit)

Well, almost every software you download nowadays have some sort of new version detector anyways, I see no point in worrying about the game say "a new version of the game is available do you wish to update it?".

Also, to be honest any game you download in itch or anywhere could be downloading something you don't want and not telling you, so worrying when it tells you makes no sense to me.

And the update server, is a host web service, like any website host service, which is paid, not free like the free file sharing websites which can have their links removed by the server and later replaced by someone with not so good intentions using the premium service from them (this os not that uncommon btw), just throw money on their face and you would be surprised on how flexible they get with deprecated links (they don't even verify if you were the original person posting it).

redonihunter1 year ago

every software

while games can be classified as software, i make a serious distinction between most software and most games.

most games on itch are single time encounters. download. play. move on. it is rare to immediatly download a new update, even if it comes out monthly or even weekly. i can update it, when i feel like playing it again. no need for any update companion scheduler. there are only so many games I could "really" follow, like installing an update when it comes out.

and if you have an account for some webservice, you are prime target for hacking.

but the bottom line for me is, i do not even trust bigger companies to manage an update service, so i absolutly do not trust a single dev with it, and to make it worse, in most cases i do not see the need for such a service to begin with - not for the type of content we are talking about.

to put into another perspective, from what i saw on itch so far, game devs do not even bother to make their games installable. rightly so, because it is not needed. unzip and you are done. in ye olden days thsi would have been called portable. the olden days where itsy bitsy tool devs had installation routines, routinly bundled with adware and leftovers when you deinstalled. I saw about once a game with some kind of "companion" app. Maybe twice. And it was basically to ensure some kind of drm by way of a launcher/updater. (still talking about offline indie games)

FearCode1 year ago (3 edits)

If I was planning to make a one-play-time game, yes I'd not bother to not even make a installer for it, the project I'm working on atm is supposed to have at least 10hr of gameplay, that's why I think the user would be plased not have to relocate his save files everytime there's a new version of the game. That was one of the critiques about itch.io, I got from people is steam: it's hard to manage updates.

I myself am not a fan of installers either, so I understand an auto-update could trigger some disconfort in some people, thanks to your input, I will prompt a message asking if the user wants the game update itself once a new version is out there, if not I'll simply prompt a link to the download page.

redonihunter1 year ago

the user would be plased not have to relocate his save files

Huh? save game locations are to be put into a user specific folder, not the game folder.

You seem to reinvent the wheel a lot. As a rule of thumb, if no one else is doing something or everyone is doing things a certain way, there usually is a reason. It might be a stupid reason, of course. Or a limitation of some engine.

Like in this thread, the overly big games. The offenders are usually visual novels with heaps of pictures. If those are lossless output of their rendering chain they are needlessly big and could be made a lot smaller. But here we go back to the reasons why I would not trust a single dev with an updater companion. It is different skills. Some of the devs are not capable or aware how to make their games reasonably small. Or they just do not care. Or they do, but in a different way. They hear lossy compression and fear for their art to be diminished, or so i imagine.

FearCode1 year ago (2 edits) (+1)

Huh? save game locations are to be put into a user specific folder, not the game folder.

Sorry, I was not clear, the actual save file is in a user local folder, but a huge portion of the game is procedurally generated, thus needs to be cached. Whether I could also save that in a user folder or not is a good question, I think it would be better to not do that so the loading time would be only in the first time anyone runs the game.

limitation of some engine

That's the reason I've seen dev. complaining in another thread in steam, I'm making my own engine so reinventing the wheel some times with more flexibility is a common thing to me.

And yes, I really don't think my game will even be larger than 1GB, as I said most of the data is procedurally generated in the first time you run it, so the actual download size will not be that big.

Jango Mango1 year ago(+2)

Like others have said already, there is a 1GB size limit to projects but you can increase it on request. Most people just don't know that though.

I wasn't able to upload my first project on itch due to it being near 3GB. I instead went to game jolt as they didn't have that restriction.

After several months, I decided it was time for optimization. I removed some unused levels, modes, textures, items e.t.c, but it was just a little over the 1GB limit. I contacted itch's support through email and asked them if there was any way to increase the limit. They increased it to 2GB for me.

Now it has been upgraded to 4GB limit. Not sure why, cause my projects are now around 900mb, maybe because I'm using butler now and previously requested for a size increase but I certainly appreciate it.

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