Post by jollov in How to return the old controls in 0.9.0???

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Well the impression I've been getting is the complete opposite, that everyone seems to hate the new controls. It's not something you can gauge accurately without a poll (And hopefully not one restricted to just people that are willing to give away their personal phone numbers and other private data to Discord Inc. just to join the server).

But onto the controls themselves:

It is not about "getting used to them"; I already have and can operate well enough with them, and yet I still think they suck.

Tap/Hold does nothing but unnecessarily introduce delay *and* room for error. Time management in VotV is crucial, specially early game, so adding any delay to day-to-day actions a bad idea. If you want to mitigate that by reducing how long you need to hold E, you're turning the controls into a matter of skill and learning your timings. And making controls skill-based is something that runs completely opposite to v0.9's purported mission to simplify the controls.

Being able to switch E's tap and hold would accomplish nothing. If you've been playing at all you should have soon realized different contexts call for toggling R's swap one way or the other: You're doing life to life activities, you're often going to want R-tap to be hold. You're collecting trash, you're going to want R-tap to be collect. So if you were looking to be efficient with your time so you can fulfill your 5 signal quota and still have time to clean by doing that, you're dooming yourself to switching back and forth, never able to cement your muscle memory.

And picture this: the drone's here, so you go Hold the drive box, Grab the tape box, and Collect the zip disk. And then you're hit with a "not enough" space on that last step. Why? Because you're Holding a drive box, and under the new control scheme, with no interaction menus you no longer have any way to tell the game you want to Collect the zip disk specifically, and are left at the mercy of the game's arbitrary criteria that "Collect" must always collect held items first. Not only is this feature loss, you have to juggle items more as a result: again, completely counter to this idea that the new controls are simpler and more intuitive.

No matter how you slice it, the new controls are a downgrade.

AweomsePerosn26 days ago(+3)(-10)

i like the new contros

N3R0_NET26 days ago(+3)(-12)

Entirely disagree, and my experience with everyone I've watched says so, as well.

The new controls are more streamlined, offer more precise controls, and are pretty easy to adjust to. Nostalgia is great, and new things are scary, but the new controls are definitely not bad compared to the older, clunkier ones where you had to hold ALT to drop something.

jollov25 days ago(+10)(-2)

Pray tell, how is losing the ability to collect things while you're holding a tool or container "more precise"? Or, say, the metal detecting and digging example someone else brought up later in this thread?

What exactly is more streamlined about trying to use a container, but accidentally grabbing it because I didn't wait quite long enough, and flinging it around as I move the mouse because I was expecting the menu to open up? And many more instances of use vs grab or hold vs collect shenanigans brought about by turning the controls into a QTE? Even boons such as precise placement are affected: are you yet to experience the frustration of placing a book on a hanging shelf, and accidentally

Like I said at a later point in this thread, there were far better solutions and alternatives to Alt being annoying. Something I've yet to see anyone provide, is lived examples and experiences where the new controls actually made their workflow smoother in ways that only tap-vs-hold and the removal of most action menus could.

And I must point out again: "It's just nostalgia!" and "You're just scared of change!" are not actual arguments. They're rude attempts at dismissing others' experiences and opinions.

N3R0_NET20 days ago (6 edits) (-3)

You mean... Pressing R to pick something up or holding it to equip it instead of having to scroll through the menu for the option, the menu of which changes based on the object? Holding R to put it down again? Pressing E to pick something up HL2-style (same key as HL2, too) or holding the key to just use it? Having to hold E instead of scrolling down a menu again to find the proper option to access a container? The button press duration of which being entirely customizable in the options, specifically so you can avoid nearly all the 'QTE' issues you're apparently having? Having the option to drag large props with E or drag specific points by just pressing Shift and E? Not having to hit ALT to drop things — a modifier key that hasn't been commonly used by mainstream Steam games aside for 'alt-tabbing' purposes, for close to 20 years now?

And no, I haven't run into the problems you're using as examples, I'm sorry to say. If anything, any of the hurdles I did bump into would've been made worse with the old controls and lack of precise placement.

On the topic of anecdotal experiences, just about every other interaction has been made easier and a lot smoother for me — and the vast majority of players I've watched play the game recently. The only thing I'd agree with you about is not being able to pick up loose objects with a tool in hand is the tiniest bit inconvenient, something that I just assumed was a symptom of this being an entirely new control scheme in an experimental build.

If you want examples of my own; one of the games' main tasks—manning the terminal stations—has been made a lot easier and faster for me.

Total buttons needed: 2

No multi-button presses needed.

You can absolutely say you dislike it or that you have grievances with it, but that's literally more streamlined than before. Like, objectively. By definition.

And, you're right. The "nostalgia" and "afraid of change" comments aren't proper arguments, I'm sorry if that offended—but it does still ring pretty true. I haven't heard very many arguments here for the old controls being better other than just, "I preferred it" or "I was used to it".

Like I said in earlier comments, too. I would much prefer if the game gave players the option to either stick with the new controls or use the old ones. Aside from the work needed to implement it, there'd be literally no downsides to that, in my mind.

jollov20 days ago (1 edit) (+3)(-2)

Ok, I need to reiterate: I'm talking about improvements that can only come about only as a result of the hold-based controls and the removal of context menus.

I like the precise placement tool. I like the capability to put held items in containers without worrying about my own inventory's capacity. Both save me plenty of time juggling with the basic controls, and (this part is important) would have been just as helpful under 0.8's Alt-based controls. Because these tools work and are useful regardless of the controls or steps (...within reason) required to access said tools. And, as an added point, I consider collecting items while you're holding something to be as much a capability and as niche as storing held items. And you can bet I'd be complaining about the later being removed too if that ever happens.

Now, only tapping E once to grab something instead of having to hold E? That is valid as a control. And it's a change that I absolutely love. I don't think I've mentioned it, but I had to rebind all my controls from E to LMB just to reduce the strain induced by having to hold down E. I've been referring to these controls by the default bindings for convenience. But back on point: Thing is, it is valid as a control change yes, but not as a control change that can only exist under a hold-based scheme - There is nothing inherent to an Alt-based scheme that would preclude this change from being available in 0.8.

(And by the by, yes, as you may surmise from how I like not having to hold down E to grab, I conversely really dislike having to hold E to scroll through the few context menus there are now).

Also, I must point out that having the option to drag large props with E or drag specific points by just pressing Shift and E is how the game already worked, just swapped around: in 0.8, holding E on a large object drags it by a specific point, it just didn't make it visible with a line as it does now. And holding Shift+E dragged said object around as a whole, a capability I think was added on 0.8, if not 0.7. I do believe it to be a fantastic change to swap these around and to make the original drag-by-point highly visible and understandable to the player: accidentally tipping tables over was a major source of frustration to new players. The one new change here with 0.9 I believe may be that now dragging an object as a whole also allows you to rotate it with mousewheel, bypassing the need to drag by point to rotate furniture, and inherent tipping risk. And of course, these all are changes that were perfectly possible under 0.8 and by no means exclusive to 0.9's scheme, by virtue of the fact most of it already existed at the time.

As for your drive example I must preface this by saying it took me a while to understand what you were showcasing, and I even had to boot up 0.8 trying to se what the difference was (since far as I recall you only needed E to grab and move around drives), before it clicked that you were showcasing the ability to swap held items with hotbar items. Again, a welcome change, but not one that required a hold-based scheme to exist. The default key uses middle click if I recall? But I may be interpreting your video wrong still, do tell me if that's so.

By the by, booting up 0.8 has also made me realize a couple things, one you might like and one you might not:

First, I still love context menus. Hold and collect are a single scroll (down and up respectively) away from default for most item, the second most common item type being containers with use at the bottom-most option, so collect (something you can't do on most containers anyway, due to size) is the only option that's a bit out of the way. I can scroll to collect and just spam E on all the trash, and accidentally placing the cursor over a container doesn't reset things: it shows collect for for said container, and I can go back to collecting trash. It's only, say chairs that cause a reset, and then it's just one scroll away again. Compare the time lost scrolling once per 10-20 items to the time lost holding R 10-20 times. All in all, I really miss how context menus made mass repeat actions easy, and still see no reason it can't coexist with a hold-based scheme anyway.
Second, you'll be happy to know I've actually found myself missing something from 0.9 and it's the ability to hold objects using a single keypress, as opposed to scroll+E or E followed by R (the later being easier with my binds using LMB as E and E as R, but I must acknowledge the clunkiness of the original keybinds there). Thinking on it, I think I've had to hold items more often in 0.9 than 0.8, given all the new tasks and capabilities dependant on holding an item to use it, though I can't say whether it's so much a difference it'd nullify the value of such a direct-holding capability to 0.8; I'd bet on it still being valuable. Still, it's another capability, and so independent of how the controls to access it are implemented - We could have had this in 0.8 under "Q" or similar

Last but not least, the two points I've yet to address. My QTE and my R to hold/collect issues, for which I'd ask you to reread what I said earlier, but I'll summarize:

Tweaking the duration pits you against the choice of harder QTEs, or having every other action take longer than usual in a game where time management is important. Neither is good
The game can be divided into a collecting-heavy phase (cleaning the base) and a hold-heavy phase (actually focusing on tasks now you're done cleaning). Having a large number of tasks that each involves a delay is both a setback and a drain on my personal sanity. So now I have to choose between optimizing and making tasks less annoying but dealing with re-relearning part of the controls past a certain point, or avoiding this re-relearning but suffering a setback while certain tasks become more annoying.

So, to answer directly:

Yes, I do mean pressing R to pick something up or holding it to equip it instead of having to scroll through the menu for the option, the menu of which changes based on the object. I do mean holding R to put it down again. I do mean the button press duration, of which being entirely customizable in the options does little to help with the 'QTE' issues I'm having.

However, no, I do not mean anything else out of what you've listed, because on top of being positives, they were already possible under the old scheme. And a big part of this is so because most of what you list are capabilities, and not controls per se.

N3R0_NET19 days ago (2 edits) (+1)(-4)

I appreciate your preferences but, respectfully, your response kind of reinforces my take that the predominant issue people have with the new control scheme isn't that it somehow is worse than the old one, but because they just preferred it arbitrarily out of habit. To be clear, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, you're absolutely allowed to prefer it for any reason you want, but it isn't a fair argument against nor a valid criticism of the new control scheme either.

I'm going to try and keep the reply to the examples concise:

For the drive example, I was also showing the notably improved flow where I didn't have to press Alt+R to drop something, which was an incredibly tedious yet incredibly common action the game requires throughout it's play time. I could pick something up with R, hot-swap it in the inventory, use the next item in the queue, and then drop the initial item - with the same button. Like I said in my earlier comment, that's an improved, streamline control scheme, by definition.

Am I saying that the old one bad as a result? No, not necessarily, but it was more obtuse and harder for new players to learn.

I'm also going to say, I'm not really happy or unhappy with what you do like or don't like about the old/new systems. I'm not trying to be petty and score points against you or trying to prove that your preference for something is wrong. My entire argument is that the new control scheme is, in fact, objectively streamlined and simpler than before. That doesn't mean it's better, if only because that becomes an entirely subjective point.

Ironically, I don't miss the context menus. At all. I appreciate that they're still there to a capacity in 0.9, but I never use them unless I have to. Like in the case of the backpack and microwave, I wish it were gone and that I could Active and Use the item just by pressing/holding a button instead of having to scroll down every time. Same with the garbage collecting. You say it's incredibly convenient to just have to scroll down once, but it resets for a variety of reasons. I would know. I launched 0.8.2 and tested it. If your mouse hovers over a different item, like a stone, or a piece of trash, it'll reset and you'll need to scroll down again. Compare that to just pressing R. There's no resets, no accidental misinputs - I just press R for everything I need, and I don't need to worry about it.

As for the QTE argument, I... Just don't see it. I'm sorry.

You say that it's a choice between a "harder QTE" or wasting time when you, in an earlier paragraph, praised the old control scheme for having to scroll down a context menu for nearly every action. You objectively waste much more time doing that, especially if you overshoot the option you want, doing that than just... Pressing R for literally 0.5 seconds longer — or more, or less, depending on what you prefer. I'm not trying to be disrespectful when I say that's an argument born entirely out of preference for the older system. You're valid in preferring it, but I don't accept that as a critique of the new system.

Likewise, you're right. The collecting-heavy phase of the game, where you clean up the base and spruce it up, is very reliant on the controls being able to flow smoothly. And again. The new controls are better for that. You say that having to hold key presses are a drain on your sanity, but I flew through it even when I was still unfamiliar with it. The millions of context menus in 0.8, and earlier builds, and having to scroll for each one were a drain on my sanity, because the game never wanted to make doing something direct and easy.

If the issue you're having is that you don't like re-learning the controls — totally fair. But that's, again, an argument based on "I just prefer what I'm already used to" and not any sort of tangible feedback that could help improve the new controls or convince anyone to abandon it.

And, of course everything I listed was possible in the old control scheme. My argument was that it was easier now. Simpler.

Your response was literally:

"What exactly is more streamlined about trying to use a container, but accidentally grabbing it because I didn't wait quite long enough, and flinging it around as I move the mouse because I was expecting the menu to open up? And many more instances of use vs grab or hold vs collect shenanigans brought about by turning the controls into a QTE? Even boons such as precise placement are affected: are you yet to experience the frustration of placing a book on a hanging shelf, and accidentally.

Like I said at a later point in this thread, there were far better solutions and alternatives to Alt being annoying. Something I've yet to see anyone provide, is lived examples and experiences where the new controls actually made their workflow smoother in ways that only tap-vs-hold and the removal of most action menus could."

And I listed almost everything you did, and more, as well as provided my own example of how the new control scheme did, objectively, streamline the processes and were not as cumbersome as you made them out to be. I took issue with what you said because you used hyperbole and made it seem like the new controls were just so much worse in general, for anyone who used it. That simply isn't he case. It's the exact opposite in fact. The new controls add in more capabilities and improve the controls, no matter how you wish to define them.

To quickly add: You're valid in preferring the old system regardless, but calling my earlier responses dismissive, as if I just replied with "get good lol", instead of challenging arguments based off of subjective opinions is not fair nor productive. And I'm so far not convinced that I was wrong. But all the same, I apologize if I sounded or if I'm even coming across now as stand-off-ish. That's not my intent.

jollov19 days ago(+3)

Alright, look, I promise to get to the rest of your post later when I can, but for now while I'm on break I've only time to address one here and it's the one that's puzzling me most because clearly our experience with the context menu are being completely different for some reason :

If I scroll to an option, look away, then look back, the option remains. It remains if I look at a different, 3 option object (including tables). it even remains selected if I look at 4 option object, such as notebooks. It does, indeed, reset when I look at a 2 option object, in this case drive boxes. I scroll again, and this time rather than looking around, I spam E and collect everything: once again, the option remains selected unless I look at drive boxes.

I have to point out this is 0.8.0, rather than 0.8.2, as it is what I had immediately available, so I can't rule out something having happened since that would disrupt this behavior.

jollov19 days ago(+3)

After some more fiddling, seems to me the issue here is the old "Interaction menu reset" setting, which I had disabled. For all I know I may have had it that way since 0.6, if it was there back then still. And indeed after enabling it I get the behavior you describe, where every new object you DO have to scroll to whatever option. So, I can understand now where you're really coming from, it would have driven me nuts to play like this too. Probably why I had that setting off.

And likewise, I do hope you can understand where I'm coming from now, having now seen how easy it used to be for me to scoop up trash and drives out a table and what it must have been like going from that to 0.9 and having to deal with a choice of either constant delays or purposefully signing myself up to re-relearning how to use R later in the game.

And I have to punctuate the part about me not liking having to relearn controls. Which, hey it is true, you're not really wrong there, and I doubt anyone likes going through that process. But I'm not so naïve as to base my views of the new controls on having to go through the 0.8 to 0.9 relearning process, an once in 2-3 years event. I'm basing my views of the new controls on the possibility I may have to go through the process of re-relearning how to use R every time I want to start a new save.

Moving on, I've also been practicing your workflow and there's something I'd like to know: how low have you set the delay, exactly? I'm at 0.18, from the 0.2 default. I am literally incapable of lower, I've already had to keep increasing it to stop accidents. And 0.18 speed still doesn't feel as fast as it looks in your video.

And on the subject of possible differences: what's your mouse's mousewheel like? Every mouse I've owned over the past two decades had the wheel move at granular increments and stop, which you can feel slightly click under your finger, and only a couple have had a button to let the wheel rotate freely. So as result I very rarely overshoot, usually just undershoot. Is your mouse different in that regard? Your habits, maybe, preferring to let the wheel rotate freely? I've noticed which mouses that let me unlock the wheels rotation, I usually need to unlock it to achieve the same max scrolling speeds as mouses that don't, so I can understand if you prefer to leave it unlocked 24/7.

And listen: I spent the weekend learning the new controls and giving them a chance before posting, precisely to ensure it wouldn't be nostalgia glasses or anything of the sort clouding my judgement. This entailed weaning off my 0.8 muscle memory, fiddling with the delays, realizing I couldn't go lower and trying out swapping R's tap and hold functions and weaning my still nascent R muscle memory, cleaning up the base as I finish getting used to the controls and it's quirks, learning new habits such as performing a hold->store unless I'm storing multiple items at once to save myself the time from holding E on a crate, realizing my choice to to swap R's functions was now holding me back and undoing that, weaning off my (now slightly better rooted) R muscle memory, and then playing longer still trying to cement all I've learned. ...Until I realized the treehouse was broken and I'd likely have to do a new save once the patch drops.

The above paragraph not meant to be an "oh look how I have suffered!", but rather me showing you that I have put honest effort into getting used to these controls and ensuring views aren't colored by nostalgia, an irrational distaste for change, nor preferences borne solely from past habits. In essence, this is meant to put into perspective exactly why I found your initial comments about nostalgia and being scared of change as rude and dismissive, as it essentially erased any of my lived experiences with 0.9. I am content you acknowledged that earlier already, and entirely glad that you are now actively engaging with my points and deeply elaborating on yours. And I want you to extend this to the idea that my arbitrary preferences may not be solely due to old habits, here.

And as much as I'm of the idea that criticism is no less valid merely because the critic lacks the expertise to provide ideas in how to improve things, I must point out that I did provide such an idea. I really wanted to delve into that at first, with tables and comparisons between usecases and such, but it is getting really late and this post is getting long enough already. So I'll have to guess ahead and summarize*:

Consider an updated 0.8 Alt+context based scheme that gets any 0.9 goodies, as long as they don't collide with existing controls nor involve having holding down a button perform a different action than tapping it: We're talking storing a held item directly into a container, precision placement... all that stuff.

Consider 0.9's Tap-Hold.

Now, consider a modified 0.9 Tap-Hold scheme that gets any 0.8 goodies, under the same restrictions: Far as I can tell, what's missing here is a way to collect an item if you're already holding something. "Q", for example, since context menus are out.

Consider a fourth, nebulous control scheme, of which we know tapping R behaves as in 0.9 by holding/placing items, and tapping Q collects items. This is based on the idea I had floated: to let players rebind those silly Alt combos to something else.

Compare the four. What I believe right now would come out of it is these points:

Both Q-R and the modified Tap-Hold are better than the traditional Tap-Hold: Obviously ambiguity is resolved for collecting while holding, but that's just an added goodie. The real hitters are the fact an option that we now have two options with zero delay,and my delay issues with Tap-Hold are gone: I'm no longer torn between dealing with harder QTEs or having the game twist which way I prefer R to work during nor between playthroughs.
Now being equal, the modified Tap-Hold and Q+R are obviously better than dealing with Alt+context's finger twisting combos, even with all the added goodies.
So then, what's the difference between Q+R and the modified Tap-Hold? Looking at your drive workflow as an example, comparing Q+R and the original Tap-Hold, under Q+R you'd be doing the same number of key presses, Id spare myself the delay, and we'd both go from needing two keys to three. That tradeoff is comparatively small, and I'd readily agree hinges on arbitrary preference here. Knowing this, the modified Tap-Hold's advantage is obvious: flexibility, the best of both worlds without any collision. Players that don't like to hold down R or can't get the timing down to pleasant, just use Q; players that don't want extra keys involved in a sequence, just hold down R.

So, flexibility. Which looking back, is also the thing I liked about context menus: the choice between scroll and E, or a sequence of keys if you're not accurate with scrolling. Having the game allow for arbitrary preference is a good thing. I know you've made note of this, supporting the idea of having a toggle between the two, which had both schemes been equally terrible then yeah, it'd be a form of flexibility. Delays, their buildup, and the alternatives being higher user error or periodic control re-learning phases in a game where time management matters and errors set you back, made Tap-Hold worse either Alt+context or potential Q+R schemes, but seeing it in the light of a potential modified Tap-Hold? The difference between old Alt+context and old Tap-Hold is close enough they're now merely equally terrible instead.

This is why examples such as your drive workflow are so critical and matter to me, more so now that I do understand the point of your example better. Thank you.

I'm going to bed for now, and I gotta make a note to propose this in the feedback form tomorrow as the more I think on it the more promise it shows. I've no answer for what keybind to use that would do the equivalent for E and Grab/Use... but I'm not a gamedev. There's a reason why I think you shouldn't be an expert that's capable of good feedback in order to be able to give criticism.

* Spoiler warning: I did not summarize, by any metric.

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