Post by raspberryroses in Critique: it's harder to connect to characters

Viewing post in Critique: it's harder to connect to characters

I agree with your broader point - that the game heavily encourages 'optimized' runs, and that it can be a struggle to justify picking up some of the more obscure skills and quests. I'd have to respectfully disagree on some of the specifics you bring up.

For example: there are a few interactions that get locked behind having an elector's background investigated. I felt the same way you did when I first played - I would savescum to see if I could get a blackmail hook or a proposal out of the background, and revert to the old save if I got neither. But everything changed when I did my 100 Intrigue run. The primary impact seems to be flavor text, but just off the top of my head: Chapadoc unlocks an entirely new option for her quest if you go into it with her background investigated. Her usual quest tests Big Guns, which is a deeply useless skill that I've never been incentivized to pick up. Her other option is not only hilarious, but it's also solvable with a wide range of skills.

I definitely wouldn't say no to having some additional incentives to properly investigate backgrounds, though.

I also think you've written off Heru IV way too quickly - it sounds like you had a pretty bad first run with them, because 2 out of the 3 electors start off with really high approval for you. The 3rd one isn't extremely negative either. Obviously they can turn on you, like you experienced, if you make choices which anger them, but you really shouldn't write off the entire faction. Grojdana is the best advisor in the game IMO, Jade has some good stats and a quest you can auto-win with a good science advisor, and Rippling Eternity provides insight into some Heru politics. If any faction feels a bit unfair to me, I'd say it's Heru II - I feel like I can only get Khdarr's approval if I'm planning a run around it.

In my perfect world, I do wish that the specific advisors you hired could have a wider impact on the story. There's one instance where having Sola as your advisor can give you a new choice in the main story, and I'd love more like that. I'd also love the ability to get to talk with your advisors in deep space. I've dug around this game as much as I could and I still haven't gotten my definitive answers on how Eve & Vahter knew our mom, the Branekka-Milan beef, and plenty other mini mysteries. I'd die for some more hints on that. And for some more interactions with our marriage partners!

I say in my perfect world, because, well... given the amount of choice in this game, I don't know how feasible such a thing would be. My gut says it'd be a logistical nightmare. But I do miss the one-on-one interactions you could get in LLTQ - like helping Adair catch frogs in the courtyard and talking with Charlotte when she first comes to visit.

Just to throw some ideas out there - even though we're given a lot of choice about where we assign electors in our cabinet, there are clearly some roles that they are best equipped to fill. So maybe they could have one special event based on that? Like, okay, Stoyan just got done advising me on science, and now there's a brief scene you can view in deep space where you have a chat with him, learn a bit more about his deal, and maybe gain a +5 to a stat.

bluepanda80062 days ago

I realise as you commented that I said Heru IV but I meant Heru II the one on the furthest right lower side because yes I go for Jade and Grojdanna all the time.

Ultimately I'm talking about how I feel about progression in this game. It's not that learning how to do new runs is impossible it's just I'm not given enough natural incentive (run ins with the characters/events that involve them to build familiarity) and time to have a few turns to waste to let me want to take time to explore more deeply.

When I arrived in Heru II and found they were all hostile I didnt have any idea of what would be needed to figure them out and also figured that they didnt have enough votes to make it worth my effort to even worry about visiting them. Ignoring them completely basically doesn't impact my run noticeably. Yes there's some kind of disease/bioweapon going on but that seems like so many steps and I'm already barely having the time to reach the other things I need.

And this is where I think LLTQ did a better job of getting the player curious about different things they could be doing whilst they were on a particular playthrough. It made it so in a game it was much easier to think of doing differently for other runs since the flavourtext told you what your skills did or fill you in with the lore which got mybrain churning possibilities.

Also there was stuff like random letters from Briony filling you in with Kevin's antics, running into Selene and Julianna having a quiet moment together which clarifies some of the coldness if you chose to be cruel to Julianna etc. It felt like the characters had interlocking stories in a more tangible way than we have at the moment because most of the scripted events involved them.

I tend to marry Kevin when possible purely because he killed me on so many occasions and when I finally figured out his background and got the thorny but sweet romance epilogue I felt trauma bonded. I don't think there's enough interactions to reach the same level here.

Also the flavourtext from your lessons really helped with worldbuilding which helps you know in subsequent runs what might be needed to unlock different options or just what might be possible. For me reading the flavourtext in LLTQ did spark a curiosity that made me want to try different things.

My progression so far has been:

Going into the game blind fumbling around until I landed on a strategy that worked then optimising to win the game via elections. During the process securing a vote by marriage I stumbled into the genetic information. When I accepted Krovos as a spiritual advisor because I was annoyed with the actual official leader being a bitch every time I tried to make nice with her I stumbled into passing the check on turn 10 and combined with Krovos's personal quest and failing to entertain Mirelle's child with a magic trick I got curious enough about lumens and tried more runs to figure out that side of the story. With a lot of trial and error to get the required pieces all in one run and Vasily giving the hint that the Emperor was at the opera to let me know my time limit I finally got a run that worked killed him then got more curious about the former empress and thats kinda what I'm working on now.

Sadly not much of the story points me towards the rest of the characters. And even though I have some familiarity with the game I think thats actually leaving me to feel more like I dont have time to get the right stats at the same time I'm in the area for certain characters

I've been curious about maybe 3 people Eve, Krovos and weirdly the guy on the same planet as Lorkas.

Eve because what is up with her and our mother???

Krovos because I'm down for a new religion but it seems there's no plans to create a heretic cult in the game.

And the other guy (I forgot his name) because I was trying to secure a vote and I heard about his son and wanted to see where that went but then I realised I would need an extra turn and I instead went for Lorkas who's willing to let you marry her daughter in 2 social points.

The time crunch really kills my desire to waste time on uncertain rewards and because learning information also takes an action and typically I'm spending max 2 turns on an area and I'm not returning unless I have to stop there on the way to another place.

raspberryroses62 days ago

Oh, then I can definitely agree on Heru II feeling very unbalanced. I think we'll be getting more payoff on their whole deal when the finale is patched into the game - you can learn a bit more about what is going on there via the epilogues. I will say, it isn't to do with the disease/bioweapon - that plague hits Heru III. It is possible to investigate further into that. But the chilly reception we get in that sector is really harsh from a gameplay POV.

The sprawling nature of the game does make planning out runs harder, and I can definitely see why you'd be frustrated by that. It also means there are a lot of variables to take into account. Which a part of me finds really fun! But there's also a part of me which is tearing my hair out because I did a run and automatically got Oletko's elector vote, but oh, I failed this crucial skill check on turn 12 - no worries, I'll just restart from turn 8 and do some new classes, but oh, now I don't auto secure his vote because one of the 100 variables behind the scenes got changed through one of my actions. Figuring out cause and effect felt a lot easier in LLTQ.

I definitely get the sense that these characters have interlocking stories, but it feels like they're interlocked in ways I'm unable to witness. They have set enemies, and a lot of them have a history together. But there's no way for me to dig into that history. I agree that I really really miss the flavor text.

Also, Rejt's son is one of my favorite romance options! Highly recommend trying to pursue him.

bluepanda80062 days ago

Yes I feel like I'm bad at actually communicating my issues clearly and just tend to waffle. LLTQ made cause and effect very obvious in a lot of situations. Which also meant on playthroughs were you are doing something else entirely you are learning stuff thats useful for when you come back. Give land a way Banion makes a comment, Marry off Brin deal with Banion trying to imply a relationship between you embarrass him with already being engaged or outwit him.

In this game because so little of the cause and effect is made clear it ends up incentivising me to optimise what's the point of figuring out which of like 10 checks/decisions has caused their opinion of me to drop? Who cares about the wider networks of who's friendly with who and who's an enemy when it's difficult to keep track of and ultimately not necessary for the goals of 17 votes and not dying.

I kind of wish there was some kind of presenter characters like a news channel that could give some kind of insight into the reactions to our actions like they were covering the run up to an election. Like it cost a social point every round to listen in on but it would keep you up to date on things happening in the wider galaxy.

bluepanda80062 days ago

I realise in my way to long reply I didnt properly comment on your comment- sorry I feel like I need to explain that it's less of the game not having the options and more like stuff like 100 intrigue runs sounds nice but that's 4 turns and you don't see a benefit until you surpass your threshers intrigue.

You are telling me there's value in investing in the stat but I'm not sure I would naturally figure that one out when you need to do so much investing without seeing a benefit.

I agree that interactions with advisors in deep space would go a long way to making their characters stand out and might incentivise me to try and make them like me without putting them on my council and getting a scene if they are in the right role for them would be great.

I'm also wondering if expanding your starting stats might help. So we start with a few starts based on our chosen pet but it might be useful to also hold knowledge stats based on starting pet that gives you a hint on somethings like starting with the blob gives you 10 in intrigue, which hints that you might want your own source of info rather than relying on her and idk 10 in science. Hawk gives you military and idk Imperial history. Viper gives media and idk Galatic relations.

raspberryroses62 days ago

You don't need to invest in the stat for this to work, to be clear. I agree that there isn't much benefit to doing a 100 intrigue run, other then just seeing what happens. But I am saying that there is benefit to investigating background, which is only going to be 1 turn of your run. Again, investigate background for Chapadoc + negotiate + personal quest ends up in a very fun set of circumstances.

I suppose that is 3 actions you have to invest to get her good, but it's not as if you can get her vote via cabinet slots, so I think it's worth checking out at least once.

One final thing: obviously you are entitled to your own opinion on how much you can connect to the characters. But as somebody who did recently replay LLTQ, I will say that the scenes in that game have very economical storytelling. The interactions between characters in it are pretty brief. If you're willing to play less efficiently, this game gives you a lot more opportunity to actually get to know the characters.

bluepanda80062 days ago(+1)

Its more seeing them frequently builds up familiarity which brings about curiosity. It's not like Kevin for example is a particularly deep character I personally have a connection with Kevin for getting me killed at the festival too many times -often when I forgot to account for him and got surprised with a situation I didnt have the stats for. So when I finally put in the effort to get down to the bottom of why he was like this I then made a commitment that wherever possible I'd spare the stats to keep Briony alive and marry him.

I think LLTQ definitely did a better job of having the world feel like it reacted to your decisions in a way that the player can track. Marry Adair and face issues with Sedna. Hire your aunt and stop dealing with assassins. Etc.

Here's it's like let the scientist go to Heru yes or no a disease starts. Clone children brought to your attention the different options produce different results I'm sure but tangibly you are working with percentages until someone dislikes you enough to send assassins more than you made a decision that leads to a natural consequence.

But seriously having scripted events involve the main cast more would go a long way into building that kind of dynamic where you feel invested in certain characters by familiarity and you felt like your decisions actually impact the wider cast in ways that seem like a natural consequence.

There has to be a certain incentive to not playing economically and the right motivation is different for different players. I haven't really found my footing in playing like a military focused route if its even a thing (theres no obvious war/conquering event to be like yeah win a war and a bunch of people will swing their opinion and vote for you) but I suppose that would be on my lists of ways to try the game and see if new hooks come out with that style.

Yes I could spend extra actions learning about characters but investigation feeds into the blackmail/alliance option- when the main way to play so far is getting votes theres a pressure to figure out whats necessary to secure the vote which means theres a pressure to not waste time investigating unless thats needed for the specific character. So I'm likely to land in a new region save game and figure out who are the easiest to get votes from how many social actions that takes and do that before leaving. Actually researching the character leads to situations where Im likely to think thats interesting but I quickly realise it takes much longer than I want to be here to actually get it done/ more stats than I have to pass so I reset and take the easier characters. And then the interesting quest/character gets lost in the sauce.

As I optimised/experimented in LLTQ I took more opportunities to figure out what was up with the characters that showed up in several events or had been anecdotes in the flavourtext from the lessons.

In this game when you are getting familiar and starting to optimise the clearest path for experimentation is figuring out what's going on with your lumen powers. You can glow or make things glow in different checks, you can figure out that you aren't what you thought you are via marriage which you'll be attempting to get votes.

So the subplots and wider intrigue other than that is stuff you have to invest in without knowing what you'll be getting out of it. And when I've been playing I'm still so focused on optimising that I dont have say 3 actions to figure out a character is interesting. This is why I think the game needs to drip in character interactions or hints in spaces which aren't using what feels like a precious resource so that on subsequent playthroughs there's more of a desire to explore.

Like how in LLTQ you could run into character interactions with the social turn like going to the dungeon to talk to Julianna or maybe just make more interactions in deep space where you have an abundance of free time

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