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Way To Crown

Turn-based deck-builder, minimal visuals, focus on advanced strategies and builds. · By AlSoKnown

Feedback after playing some rounds

A topic by TheFrog created 50 days ago Views: 136 Replies: 13
Viewing posts 1 to 11
(3 edits)

Hey,

So I played a few rounds never got through a run though ... 

One small thing first ... you placed the "end button on top of the right screen" ... i would prefer it to be placed directly under the hand of cards so I can reach it a bit more conveniently after playing a hand.

That most of the warrior cards cost HP is very counterintiutive for me, like this every attack feels a little bit like a "self sacrifice".

From my first impression "enemy difficulty" seem to increase from very easy to easy to suddenly large enemy armies with tons of hp and then when you defeat them you jump back to some "easy rats" with maximum 2 HP.

Some card descriptions are a bit mysterious to me  - and it feels quite random if i get enough defense cards or not (maybe i need to make more use of the reroll button). If I have a run where I only get "heavy attack cards" it seems I'm doomed after I run into the first "enemies with lots of HP" ... since for the warrior everything eats up HP. Other Stats apart from HP like Mana feel also a bit strange, because I never had a card which required any of it - maybe they could be introced later to the game and the Warrior class just focuses on the core principle about "keeping the hp" above the threshold. 

Think in general it would be nice to have a display of how much cards will be drawn so that the effect of "exhaustion" is directly visible. For me at the moment it feels like I just play many times all of my drawn cards and barely get punished for it. 

There are some artifacts that seemed to be "relativ OP" like the Poison-Staff which automatically add 4 Poison to every enemy which keeps reducing round by round.. far more effictive then something like the "coffee artifact" which seem to barely have any impact on the game. 

I would alter some of the card descriptions to be plain text instead of formulas... I assume for example the muscle card means: 

- Increase your Strength by your current toughness 

and then with the arrow it is indicated "how much the value will be increased right now"

what bothers me  apart from the description of the card is "you don't have inherent toughness" most of the times this card is offered it seem to be completely useless in my tries so far ... there were not much "toughness" enhancing cards offered 

In summary I can say after some tries there where periods were are felt "a bit hooked" to the game, but also many times i felt like... I've too little impact to improve my gameplay in a "reasonable amount of time". 

Just played another round and could win a round with a "toughness" based build, where the attack suddenly spiraled out of control ... played afterwards a few rounds with the mage maybe I need to get used to it, but to me it feels like if you don't find a card which help you to increase your mana and you must rely on the portals from the starting hand ... you can't win the game, since expensive spells deplete your mana much faster. 

Developer (1 edit)

First, thanks for detailed and thoughtful feedback

end button on top of the right screen” … i would prefer it to be placed directly under the hand of card

Do you play on PC or mobile? I do not quite understand which locations you refer to. Do you mean to place ‘end turn’ button between cards and items?

large enemy armies with tons of hp and then when you defeat them you jump back to some “easy rats” with maximum 2 HP.

This is strange. Can you tell a little more specifics? There may be bugs in level progression / balance.

Other Stats apart from HP … introced later to the game and the Warrior class … about “keeping the hp” above the threshold.

That is correct. After reaching stage 12 with warrior, you unlock second hero, focused on MP, and so on.

display of how much cards will be drawn

Good idea, will do in next version

play many times all of my drawn cards and barely get punished for it.

“Fatigue” is meant to make “infinite” builds harder to create. Is starts to take effect only after you play 10 cards per turn, which is very unusual for basic Warrior build. However, after unlocking more cards / items, player gets access to many combos which allow dozens of cards per turn. In fact, this is one of the most common victory conditions on higher difficulties.

There are some artifacts that seemed to be “relativ OP”

Indeed, there are many very powerful items in this game. However, the relative power level is situational and not as obvious as it seems. For example, while “Staff of Venom” is a very good early game item for lower difficulties, it is sometimes not just weak, but even detrimental. Reason: this item prevents stalling (that is, intentionally keeping weak enemy alive to gain time for permanently buffing hero). On the other hand, “Cezve” (item which helps reduce Fatigue) is completely useless for simple builds, but may be literally game-winning when you build for “single-turn burst” and do not find other sources of fatigue reduction.

most of the times this card is offered it seem to be completely useless in my tries so far … there were not much “toughness” enhancing cards offered

This is a general problem in synergy-heavy games (which mine certainly is). There are special mechanics in my game (card stashing and quests) which helps player to increase probability of assembling combo. You may want to read strategy guide on this forum for more hints. That being said, I will try to add more toughness-related quests in next version.

Developer

win a round with a “toughness” based build, where the attack suddenly spiraled out of control

Yes, this is how it feels when a combo is successfully assembled, congratulations for the win.

with the mage … you can’t win the game, since expensive spells deplete your mana much faster.

Although it is quite true that you must find some way to replenish mana with mage, it is not as hard as it seems, especially on easy difficulty where you only have to reach stage 12. The most important hint for the beginner Mage is to accumulate “Gather Magic” cards in hand before playing them all in single turn. In general, while basic Warrior builds focus on “rush attack”, basic Mage builds often must defend and delay for a few turns to get optimal value from the battle.

When player unlocks card upgrades, initial mana replenishment becomes much more reliable by just upgrading “Gather Magic” cards.

Do you play on PC or mobile? I do not quite understand which locations you refer to. Do you mean to place ‘end turn’ button between cards and items

I play on pc ... my eyeside is  not the strongest so i prefer a large screen ... on my screen the cards will be placed at the left side, the "end turn button on the far right sight"... so it's just a bit uncomfortable to play the cards on the left side and then reach to right sight (But I prefer full screen).

This is strange. Can you tell a little more specifics? There may be bugs in level progression / balance.

I wish I could, but I don't remember the exact enemy types now... "maybe the rats" were supposed to be difficult cause of poison damage or something.

“Fatigue” is meant to make “infinite” builds harder to create. Is starts to take effect only after you play 10 cards per turn, which is very unusual for basic Warrior build. However, after unlocking more cards / items, player gets access to many combos which allow dozens of cards per turn. In fact, this is one of the most common victory conditions on higher difficulties.

Could you maybe introduce it later than... ? It's just if I play a card game I want every card to have a potential value,  even "if it's not likely to offer value" -> I would on easy mode only keep relevant cards that can offer some value for the player (for example throw out the coffee artifact) ...

This is a general problem in synergy-heavy games (which mine certainly is). There are special mechanics in my game (card stashing and quests) which helps player to increase probability of assembling combo. You may want to read strategy guide on this forum for more hints. That being said, I will try to add more toughness-related quests in next version.

Ok I overlooked the quest mechanic altogether. Would you say toughness is quintessential for "new warriors" in orrder to win (of course something with vampirism might also work... but never got a combo for it)? What I didn't like are hand cards "that offer not the slightest amount of value" at the moment they're presented ... for the artifacts with permanent effects this is ok for me - but hand cards that crowd your deck "with future potential" don't feel great at it all... there like "you can pick me and take a high risk to ruin your potential".. and (yeah i want to pick them for that reason) but the chances of them ruining your run feel to high. 

Although it is quite true that you must find some way to replenish mana with mage, it is not as hard as it seems, especially on easy difficulty where you only have to reach stage 12. The most important hint for the beginner Mage is to accumulate “Gather Magic” cards in hand before playing them all in single turn. In general, while basic Warrior builds focus on “rush attack”, basic Mage builds often must defend and delay for a few turns to get optimal value from the battle.

Yeah the card design makes it very clear that this "keeping cards is the way to go"... I must say i like the mage class more than the "warrior class" it feels much better to loose some mana than the own hp.  Probably you have balanced it this way... me personally i would "not have this with 0 mana you automatically die "I would maybe have some" restore one mana after a battle or battle rounds... so that you can "finish a battle with exactly 0 mana" you still have a little chance to crawl back into the game.

When player unlocks card upgrades, initial mana replenishment becomes much more reliable by just upgrading “Gather Magic” cards.

When player unlocks card upgrades, initial mana replenishment becomes much more reliable by just upgrading “Gather Magic” cards.

Sounds good :)

How did you balance the game? Did it grew it larger and larger over time and you added more combos to make it better and better? And if so did you replay "the simpler difficulties" to see how there are affected?

Developer

my eyeside is not the strongest so i prefer a large screen

Note that since this is a web game, you can zoom it like a normal web page.

uncomfortable to play the cards on the left side and then reach to right sight

Ok, I will add an option for left-sided ‘end turn’ button in next version

I would on easy mode only keep relevant cards that can offer some value for the player

The game already does that. When you start the game, you get access to only about 50 out of 350 cards and 70 out of 200 items. That being said, unlocks are very fast compared to some other games. For example, Mage unlock another ~70 cards and ~30 items, etc.

Would you say toughness is quintessential for “new warriors” in orrder to win (of course something with vampirism might also work… but never got a combo for it)?

Not at all. In fact, toughness is probably “weakest” way to win as Warrior. In my experience, easiest Warrior builds are

  • Vampirism + HP growth, e.g. Feast on Flesh or Pipette
  • Revenge + some method of keeping HP low but still surviving, like Half Full Glass
  • Multi-strike with strength gain, using cards like Combo and Burning Rage

hand cards that crowd your deck “with future potential” don’t feel great at it all…

I suggest you to unlock “stash” mechanics which is specifically designed to alleviate that

(You can look and “Achievements” windows for a list of unlock conditions)

finish a battle with exactly 0 mana” you still have a little chance to crawl back into the game.

There is an item which does that (Pauper’s Bowl). When you unlock quests, it is relatively easy to find.

How did you balance the game?

That is an excellent question :)

Since the number of players is very low, I mainly balance based on my own playtesting and useful feedback like yours. You can look at more examples of game balance discussions on this forum or on our Discord.

For example, based on our current discussion, I will move Cezve (Coffee item) to be unlocked a bit later, and will introduce a quest to get toughness.

And if so did you replay “the simpler difficulties” to see how there are affected?

I mainly test “normal difficulty” which is when everything is unlocked but with no ascensions yet (game has additional difficulty modifiers called ascensions).

Developer

New version is published, including changes discussed here.

(2 edits)

Just played a round of the new version of the game for me the new version of the game still doesn't feel welcoming to new players... it feels like to many cards are "unknown" and also it doesn't feel very well balanced (This might be a different stroy if you know all cards present) The starting tutorial feels also like to much text to read... think it would be better to let the player always do one action and explain the effects along the way... (still have the feeling with the amount of cards you have it will be very hard to do proper balance the experience ... for slay the spyer they had 50 cards and two experienced guys balancing them for 2 years (probably based on a lot of feedback)

Developer

Which hero you played?

many cards are “unknown”

You mean difficult to understand?

doesn’t feel very well balanced for slay the spyer they had 50 cards and two experienced guys balancing them for 2 years

I do not have any resources, so I can only rely on feedback like yours for balancing. So if you have any examples or suggestions for balance, I would be very happy to listen.

Regarding my overall balance strategy, note that it differs significantly from Slay the Spire. Specifically, since I do not have enough resources to fix all unbalances, I opt instead to create as many diverse and hopefully interesting “unbalanced” builds as possible.

In this regard, I use Magic the Gathering as an example, where it is ok to have game-winning combos as long as they require sufficient amount of effort to assemble.

TheFrog8 hours ago (2 edits)

I lost my progress so I played the "warrior" again. 

You mean difficult to understand?

Sometimes yes I had a vampire cape and thought it would give me at least some "vamprism" when i play it which lasts for the round ... but it didn't seem to be the case... there was another card which lets you push an opponent to the second position ... where something was written in () which I was not so sure, what to make out of it. 

The difference to magic is that you build your deck upfront a run so you can pick cards and "go for a combos" even if you don't know all the cards (it still feels like you're doing something usefull)... and you can "start with a premade deck where you have cards which already work well". For your game it feels like you start creating a deck and try to include maybe combos "that you can't know"... and there are too many of them ... if i get a card like "enhances your toughness" as someone who is seeing this for the first time it is not clear how good toughness is... because of course I don't know the combinations... should i add "vampirsim" or is it too much "if i have toughness already" ... this are all questions that pop into my head and they prevent me for going for a clear strategy... that is why i think you should limit "the beginner decks" to one or maximum two different kind of strategies so people can easier get used to "all kind of strategies"... For example take the reroll mechanic for me as a beginner it feels a bit useless "i have to guess without knowing" which cards are good and when should i reroll ? How should I know?... So it feels the only way out is to "play a lot games to get to know the cards"... but this (at least from my perspective) is something only few people are willing to do - I would argue people want to be "hooked" by the first minute they play your game.  If you can maybe integrate some kind of log "of made choices" and people can send it to you... so you see "in detail which kind of choices" they made. 

From my perspective  you would need to put some energy into the "transition period" from beginner to pro and make it more comfortable for players to get used to your game. I don't know of course "how well it plays" after a player knows the possible cards in and out and "if you feel like a magician" after mastering all the basics... Hmm from my perspective it will be very hard to "balance" this game based on user feedback alone, or lets say it another way ... it might work "if you have your logs" in place and get the "beginner phase" to a state were many people like "at least the intial feeling" and "like to play it a lot", so that you get your data in. How many people have played your game so far?

Developer (4 edits)

Sorry if my answer is too long, I just enjoy discussing my game :)

I had a vampire cape and thought it would give me at least some “vamprism”

You mean “Hunger pang” card? It should indeed work as you said. However, there are lots of interactions in the game, and as as you have already noted some of them are non-obvious. For example, could it happen that you were in a battle against spiders and become ensnared?

card which lets you push an opponent to the second position … where something was written in () which I was not so sure, what to make out of it

This card forces the front (leftmost) enemy to attack the second enemy, dealing damage equal to (first enemy hp divided by 10). After that, front enemy in moved backwards. Flavor-wise it is supposed to represent enemies trampling each other. Gameplay-wise, there is some difference between player hitting an enemy and the enemy hitting another one. For example, player’s strength does not change the damage of this card.

If you post savefile or a screenshot, I may be able to identify specific issue.

should i add “vampirsim” or is it too much “if i have toughness already” … this are all questions that pop into my head

This is an excellent question, precisely the kind I would like players to consider. Of course, there is no “correct” answer, every run of the game is slightly different.

Without knowing specifics of your build, I would say that vampirism is much more powerful, especially after you unlock all game stages. It has game-breaking payoffs with cards like “Feast on Flesh”. However, before the right combination is assembled, cards like “Hanger pang” are just a weaker version of healing.

On the other hand, toughness is immediately useful and has some easy early-game payoffs like “Muscle”. However, it (currently?) lacks late-game potential, so overall purely toughness-based builds are weak in full game. Maybe I should add some high-payoff toughness card…

limit “the beginner decks” … people want to be “hooked” by the first minute they play your game

Although it may not seem like it, but I agree with this point and have already severely limited early-game choices. In fact, the full game is much more complicated compared to the part you have seen so far. Obviously it is still not enough, so perhaps I should make unlocking progress even slower… I will think about it

it might work “if you have your logs” in place

You can already post your save games or screenshots either here or on discord. I do not like more intrusive data collection, so the game does not send any analytics by itself. (Unfortunately, copying savegames to clipboard currently works in Firefox only due to itch.io limitation)

How many people have played your game so far?

I only use built-in itch.io analytics, so I do not have this data. My estimate is about a hundred or two. The number of “serious” players is maybe about 20.

Overall, the detailed feedback from players is my primary source of balancing and clarification. You can look at examples of such feedback on this forum and on discord.

You mean “Hunger pang” card? It should indeed work as you said. However, there are lots of interactions in the game, and as as you have already noted some of them are non-obvious. For example, could it happen that you were in a battle against spiders and become ensnared?

Might be the case, not sure

This card forces the front (leftmost) enemy to attack the second enemy, dealing damage equal to (first enemy hp divided by 10). After that, front enemy in moved backwards. Flavor-wise it is supposed to represent enemies trampling each other. Gameplay-wise, there is some difference between player hitting an enemy and the enemy hitting another one. For example, player’s strength does not change the damage of this card.
Would never put such important information into ()... if something is in brackets I consider it to be not so important, but unterstanding it seems quite important


This is an excellent question, precisely the kind I would like players to consider. Of course, there is no “correct” answer, every run of the game is slightly different.
Yeah, I understant that it will of course depend on what you have "drawn so far" it just feels a bit random when you discover something like this the first time...


Without knowing specifics of your build, I would say that vampirism is much more powerful, especially after you unlock all game stages. It has game-breaking payoffs with cards like “Feast on Flesh”. However, before the right combination is assembled, cards like “Hanger pang” are just a weaker version of healing.
On the other hand, toughness is immediately useful and has some easy early-game payoffs like “Muscle”. However, it (currently?) lacks late-game potential, so overall purely toughness-based builds are weak in full game. Maybe I should add some high-payoff toughness card…

If I encounter a lot of "vampire cards which only work" if i have vampirism "it doesn't feel good" since they might be useless for the time being and then i might bank then in the hope to "get vampirsm", i think if you start of with a bit "of vampirism and toughness" right from the start then it would feel different... maybe I'm wrong, but without either "toughness or vampirsm" enabled many cards become useless - is this a wrong assumption?

Although it may not seem like it, but I agree with this point and have already severely limited early-game choices. In fact, the full game is much more complicated compared to the part you have seen so far. Obviously it is still not enough, so perhaps I should make unlocking progress even slower… I will think about it

Me personal I would tackle the tutorial first and make it an enjoyable experience ... not based on  tutorial cards but on real cards and a bit more player "freedom" even though this is for sure not an easy task. 

Think your game would profit from a longer tutorial

  
You can already post your save games or screenshots either here or on discord. I do not like more intrusive data collection, so the game does not send any analytics by itself. (Unfortunately, copying savegames to clipboard currently works in Firefox only due to itch.io limitation)
Ah good to know... so next time i can provide a log

The number of “serious” players is maybe about 20.

What is your goal for the game? :) Do you want to have some players to have fun with it... which you probably reached with 20 people playing it... or do you want it to be more successful?

Developer (2 edits)

if something is in brackets I consider it to be not so important

I use brackets for grouping, similar to arithmetic expressions. In the case of Push card, it reads “Force enemy to: (list of actions)”, even though in this specific case there is only 1 action in the list.

For example Carnage card has “Repeat 2: (Melee self 1, Melee random enemy 1 per effect played by this card)”, which means that both actions listed in brackets are repeated.

Maybe I can use come other brackets, e.g. square, but I suspect it will cause even more confusion.

but without either “toughness or vampirsm” enabled many cards become useless - is this a wrong assumption?

There are 26 different statuses in the game, and many of them are used in various synergies. Assembling the good synergistic build is the central strategic goal of the game. Taking currently-useless cards for potential future benefit is intentionally a trade-off decision.

To improve chances of assembling a good combo, there are two important mechanisms: stash and quests. To unlock them, player must complete corresponding achievements (in particular, stash achievement is very easy).

If you are interested, I recommend playing with these unlocks, hopefully the “feels-bad” effect will be significantly reduced.

Also note that rerolling is very important part of strategy. Similar to games like Balatro, most options offered between stages are relatively useless, and you need to get good enough “economy” to afford enough rerolls to get “good stuff”.

You can read more about strategy here.

your game would profit from a longer tutorial

Interestingly, most other players asked for a shorter tutorial.

I understand that you would like something like “tutorial campaign”, with progressive stages teaching specific cards and mechanics. It is not a bad idea, although not easy to implement. I will think about it.

I have also toyed with the idea of “give info box on the first time encountering specific effect”, similar to Monster Train.

or do you want it to be more successful?

I primarily enjoy community interactions such as this one. So of course I would like my game to be widely played, but I also do not have any resources for promotion, and the core concept is niche from the start.