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We are arguing about one thing, please help!!!

A topic by Fenris created Jan 06, 2022 Views: 402 Replies: 6
Viewing posts 1 to 7

We have one problem.

We are making political strategy turn base game and we can´t decide, what solution we will use for shortcuts in the game. You will have shortcuts to enter some sections of the game as for example: party members book, parliament, map detail, economy or diplomacy section and so on. We have two solutions for where should shortcuts be placed and we arguing about which option is better. Pleas help us solve this


We are voting for the best solution on our discord "elections" channel so you can vote there.

https://discord.gg/FR8eaaJA2E

(+3)

The best solution is to make the shortcuts player-configurable.  Then it doesn't matter that much what the defaults are, and every player is happy.

Moderator moved this topic to Get Feedback
(+3)

For the default shortcuts and assuming that all actions have a unique first letter, I would go with the right configuration. Although the keys will be scattered around the board, assigning a specific letter to a certain action will be easier for the player to remember. For example, (b) for book, (p) for parliament, etc.

The original Civilization for PC used the same concept and I still remember the shortcut keys despite not having played it in 10-20 years.

And as the other person said, if you can allow the player to remap the shortcut keys that would be good as well.

(1 edit) (+2)

Originally I didn't elaborate on my thoughts, since I figured I didn't have anything to say that you haven't already discussed.  I decided to post this just in case, though, and for others who might read this.  

A big thing to remember about shortcut keys is that different players will have different keyboard layouts.  QWER/ASDF keys are all right next to each other on your keyboard, if that's the intent, but on someone else's they may not be; so if you go with that option, you would want to bind to physical keys rather than logical ones to keep them all together, since the actual key value doesn't matter.  For mnemonic shortcuts you'd of course want to bind to the logical key - unless you actually need something else to remain consistent, like WASD movement (it looks like you don't need this, though).  Mixing the two runs the risk of overlapping shortcuts on some layouts.  You could write some kind of dynamic startup binding script that takes this all into account, but there are a lot of keyboard layouts in the world; it seems like it'd be hard to truly account for all of them.  I'm not sure if there's a reliable way to deal with this.

This is the problem I ran into with my last game, since I needed (well, wanted) the six top left keys to default to movement.  I decided to just bind everything by location, based on English QWERTY mnemonics, and also provide a rebinding menu.  This means that inventory for example isn't always bound to I, but the player can change it if they don't like it.

There's also the question of if you are supporting multiple languages.  For a complex strategy game that only runs in (for example) English, it's fair enough to have mnemonic bindings based on English; if you can also play it in German, though, the English bindings may not make sense anymore.  In this case, you could have different defaults based on the selected language, or you could just leave them the same and let the player change them on their own.  Even if you only support one language, though, players still might want different shortcut keys that correspond to their native language.  So, again, rebindable keys are important.

One possible issue I could see with more spread-out keys like the layout on the right is that they might not be as accessible for some players, such as players who only have the use of one hand.  Those players might want a layout more like the one on the left, so once again, a rebinding option is valuable.

I tend to agree with 40wattstudio that mnemonic shortcuts are the way to go for a strategy game, but I can see arguments for both sides.  Hopefully I've also made the case for making the shortcuts rebindable, though.  No default layout will work for everyone, so rebinding really is important, and once you have that, the importance of choosing the "right" defaults is greatly diminished, since they are now just a suggestion and not the law.

I agree 100% with this.

Wou, thank you both of you very much for such feedback. I can see that the rebindable option for player is really the best way (for as at least). 

@MidnightSpireGames i just remember my first playthrough of Inside game. I get stuck in first 2 minutes of the game. I was supposed to push the fridge to the wall, but i was supposed to do it with right Ctrl and i only had left on my notebook keyboard. So i had to figure it out and then rebind it.

(3 edits) (+1)

As others have said, allowing rebinding of the controls is always a good idea. But, ideally, your hotkey system should tie into your GUI. A good GUI/Hotkey pairing makes things intuitive, and thus, they should influence each-other. So without knowing how your UI is setup, It's hard to give you an answer on which would work best for your game. So I'll give some examples.

In most ARPGs (Torchlight, for example), the hotbar is a horizontal menu, which has a similar layout to the row of number keys on the keyboard. So, the number keys act as a one-to-one representation of your hotbar (the '1' key is the 1st option on your hotbar, and so on). The number keys are easy to reach, and it's intuitive to understand what you press correlates to what you'll get. If the hotbar wasn't displayed this way (say, as circular menu or a list), the number keys would be much less intuitive to use. Sure, for some, it can be annoying to click the higher numbers, but that's where rebinding comes in. Players can rebind to make the hotkeys more comfortable to them, but the default layout helps the player wrap their head around how the system works. In addition, usually the most used items are lower on the bar, since those keys are easier to reach. Plus, the hotbar layout works well with a mouse, which is good for newer players who aren't comfortable with using hotkeys.

The other thing is, it's nice to have context sensitive buttons. If your game has sub-menus or the menu has a bunch of "hotkeyable" options, it's nice to have a uniform system for selecting things. A great example is Age Of Empires 2's hotkey system. The menu options are setup on a grid that represents the player's keyboard. The first 4 options are selected with 'qwer', the middle four 'asdf,' and the last row with 'zxcv' The game's GUI makes it intuitive to understand and keep track of what keys to press by just looking at menu, just click the corresponding key for the option's position on the grid. So, if I want to grab the stone mining upgrade, I select a Mining Camp, and then press 'E', since it's the second option on the top row of the camp's menu. If I want a villager to build a farm, I select 'Q' to open the economy build list (first option, first row), and then 'A' (first option on second row) to select a farm.  Plus, again, it's still easy to use the menus with a mouse (but much, much less optimal). The player can even hover over an option to see what it does if they're not sure. For additional clarity, you can even have a little icon displaying what key to press on the icon.

You couldn't really do a system like this as intuitively with the mnemonic button layout, since the keys would be all over the place, and there's a lot of different options for different units and buildings. But, it can be done. Most text editors use a mnemonic system for their tool bars. Alt to start selection of the tool bar, then the first letter of the drop down menu's name, then the first letter for the option. The menus usually even highlight the letter in the option's name that corresponds to the hotkey, to signify what to press. But even then, the most used shortcuts make don't make much "mnemonic sense."

Ctrl+c makes sense for copy, but ctrl+v doesn't make much sense for paste. Ctrl+Z for undo and shift+ctrl+Z for redo don't really correspond to anything either. Both cut/paste and undo/redo shortcuts are placed next to each-other because they're used together all the time, and they're placed in a position out of convenience and ease of use, since they're used extensively. And, because they're used so much, they're very easy to remember regardless of what they are. The tool bar selection makes it easier to dump a bunch of infrequently used options in a quick to find way, but the more useful options are placed out of ergonomics.

But, this leads to the problem of overlap. You could, for example, have 'U' as the universal button for "Upgrade unit," but what if there's multiple upgrades? Or what if multiple things make sense for the same letter? In your own example, 'P' for 'Party Members', and 'P' for 'Parliament' causes an issue. You could have 'M' for 'party Members,' but what about 'Map?' The more options, the less intuitive it becomes. The letter highlighting helps, but it defeats the purpose of mnemonic layout making it easy to remember, since you're scanning the vertical list for what to press. The toolbar could just as easily have random keys to represent the options, and it'd probably work just as well.

In addition, you could implement a system that allows key rebinding for each individual sub menu, but it can get unwieldy pretty quickly, but can be a good option to give the player if possible.  Also, It's not as big of a deal, since it's turn based, but for mouse heavy games, it can get pretty tedious to have to constantly move your left hand around the keyboard for different options, since your right is preoccupied with using the mouse. Which brings up an important point on rebinding. Rebinding isn't important just for comfort, but accessibility as well. Just because the layout works well for you, doesn't mean it's a one size fits all option, especially for those with disabilities.

Anyway, I think I'll end it here, I wrote way more then I was planning to, but I hope it helps


In Summary:

  •     Make sure the default hotkeys and GUI complement each other.
  •     The more an option is used, the more comfort wins out.
    • It's easy to remember a shortcut you use all the time anyway. Even if it doesn't "make sense."
  •     The more complex the system, the more the mnemonic layout breaks down
    • And the less intuitive it becomes.
  •     Always allow for key rebinding.
    • There's no excuse if you're using an engine that makes it easy to do.