Post by kinoko in 【What happened to me over the past few months】 comments

【What happened to me over the past few months】 » Comments

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To summarize:
Creator logic: "The characters are bi, but they are in a male x male story. Nothing changes for the player."

Hater logic: "If you label them as bi, you are opening the door for women / non M/M fans to join the community, and eventually, the game will change cater to them."

My opinion:
I think it's rooted in long-time supporters who've enjoyed this vn cuz it's already a specific niche for years, which is M/M (it's like their safe space), and now that you're rebranding, ppl will start to protect it in good or bad ways.
Easy to understand is like when a creator changes the character sprites cuz it looks better; some ppl still prefer the old ones, and in your situation, it just makes ppl take it to extremes.

I think ppl like that are concerned that a broader demographic also means the gay-focused story will be diluted.
Are you sure that, as a creator, if in the future you add more female characters, you will still keep the same quality, time release and M/M focused the same or it will start to shift to M/F?

You are also removing the Gay tag also a bad choice. This tag is to tell that everyone can play, but the story will be about men loving men. When you remove it, that means M/M is not the main focus anymore, and new ppl could demand the creator to add M/F content, which is what the og fans are afraid of.

The moment you take ppl money for this project, you have to treat it like a business, not a hobby. So not only are the creator's opinions important, the players and the fans are too, and even the haters (haters - ppl that used to be your fan). And from that, you will have to make choices that make the most sense for all the ppl, not just you.
Also, trying to argue with the haters is just like adding fuel to the fire, and for you as a creator, it never ends well.

About the diversity, there is nothing wrong with having more diversity in a VN, but at the same time, it doesn't need to have it all in one. Being the game itself rn, a M/M furry VN, is already a specific niche to contribute to the VN community in general. So whether you pick, you have to be smart and logical too.

Solution:
The easiest way is to follow where the money goes, make a poll on the P platform, ask if they want to add smth new like female or bi male char, etc. If the majority agrees, then do it; if not, then don't. It's not worth it to go against the ppl that paid you. Everything else didn't matter much.

I'm 100% being neutral abt this situation here, and curious what will come out after all this drama.

Caro3 days ago (2 edits) (+4)

I didn't remove 'Gay', I replaced to 'LGBT' to include both G (gay) and B (bisexual), making the tag better reflect the actual content of the game and reduce any misleading impression, and they take it as a sign that I have betrayed the gay community and that I am about to add romanceable female characters to the game, lmao.

And I need to remind you: the game's main page has always said M/M. That means Male/Male. Gay men are Male, and so are bisexual men. So please don't misunderstand M/M as exclusively 'gay' while ignoring bisexual men again.

kinoko2 days ago(-1)

Yeah, I should have made it clear abt that part in the comment, but the thing is, some ppl just play the game and see it all focus on M/M, so they assume it's a gay FVN, and got salty when you said they are confirmed bi.

I think rn you just need to have more bi moments, or express that the characters are bi in the story, to make it clear to the player. Just start saying that they are bi on a post, it's not enough to convince the players. Cuz some ppl just wait for new update on Itch and play, they didn't even care abt reading posts or update on other platforms, lol.

Guilty to say this, but I didn't know abt this drama until you posted it here lol. Abt the bi chars, I never notice if anyone fully express themself as bi, so I just have a huh? moment. Even though I have play this since 2021 and even have a story summary page on Notion (I need to have a job fr fr), but ig the story could have been changed here and there, or it's just too small to notice, so I could have missed it.

But if they hate and you and the game just because of being bi, you should have given them a big "fck off" and ignored them, it never ends well, try to interact with them.

Caro2 days ago (1 edit) (+5)

In fact, they really enjoy characters in the game who already have children—Snow, Axel, Parif, and so on.

But they only see these married men as a fetish to provide sexual arousal for gay men. They've never realized that these characters are actually bisexual.

So when I announced that 'most characters are bisexual'—and that this now includes some unmarried characters—they started to panic.

Because it forces them to connect those characters with the bisexual community, which has been heavily stigmatized in China:

In China, the common argument used against bisexuals is: 'In China, bisexuals will 100% use gay men for emotional satisfaction, then kick them aside and marry a woman to fit back into society.'

This makes them feel betrayed.

And since same-sex marriage isn't legally recognized in China, bisexuals have no real way to refute this.

As a result, bisexuals in China have endured persistent, one-sided abuse and humiliation by both of Straight and Gay people

I made my marriage public precisely to prove that even a bisexual from China can marry a man in a very gay way—to push back against that narrative.

But unfortunately, those people didn't understand what I was trying to say. They think I'm just flaunting my happiness and mocking their struggles, and become really angry and start attacking me.

kinoko2 days ago(+2)

I appreciate the context abt the situation in China. I didn't realize how much weight that 'betrayal' narrative carries there or how personal this is for you and your marriage. It makes sense why you feel the need to push back so hard.

Abt the bi stereotype, I think in my country, some ppl I observe have the same mindset as that too, even though it's not extreme in this situation, they think that "bi ppl just have an easy way out compared to gay ppl, they use gay ppl for a phase/experience, ...".
It's just like one poison apple in a basket full of apples, which make the ppl to reluctant, whether they want to eat the apple or not. Or in the bigger picture, it's like straight ppl agaisnt the lgbtq+ community.

This topic alone is really complex and can't be discussed through some texts, both side have their own reasons. Even I don't know how I would react if one day my same-sex bi partner decides to break up cuz they want to be with someone who can have kids together. But I know that attacked ppl just because you have a happy marriage life are never right.

At this point, the drama is just about them being negative for no reason. It’s clear you’re staying true to the M/M focus while just being honest abt who the characters are. Like I said before, the best way to prove them wrong is to just keep dropping high-quality M/M updates. Actions always speak louder, and you can't be popular with fans without some drama and haters after all.

Cuix1 day ago

as an aside, I find this kind of struggle interesting to explore in the context of vn/fiction, because that allows you to present all sorts of different perspectives with nuance and care

I've read vns that have characters with that mindset of "bisexual people can't be trusted" and I wonder if those characters are a useful way to confront the player, to ask the player "hey is this you? because this is not okay"

or bi characters who -do- choose to live a "straight life", and exploring how they struggle with that, how it makes them feel disconnected from other queer people in their life, how they try/fail/succeed to embrace and express their full self

itch.io

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