Flamers are too soul intensive, bulls feel useless, Guzzler would be good if it had full height coverage at max level (anything that passes the threshold gets collected), still think Gorilla arms is an actively bad upgrade
Runners have a bad habit at higher levels of collecting and running so fast that they tunnel their way under the pile and return to the stash with only half an inventory to the face of their long resting time - perhaps they could be given extended reach later to collect ores which have at some time been resting still but aren't directly on the floor? - particularly worried about this in terms of mythril if it gets reclaimed too
~6M DPM
Why do bulls feel useless?
Why would guzzler having full height cover matter? Anything that passes stash threshold gets always collected regardless.
Yeah gorilla arms can still sometimes feel sus. I think I might add a small CD to the YEET and also increase its force and duration of non-collisions a bit.
This runner thing is related to various late game issues such as too much damage-force and aggressive mountain reclaiming, as I explained in below comments, but also their ridiculous speed that I will soon be capping. But yeah true, I should probably extend their gathering height a bit as well. Also mithril can't get reclaimed.
Thanks for feedback!
Oh boy, so..
- Bulls. Slow, expensive, terrible capacity, horrible throughput. They have no dodge that I could easily see, meaning they're hit by so many objects that their health boost is neglected, their anti air is useless by the point you'd have them and that's if they were free. I would rather buy more runners than ever invest in bulls. I suspect half of this is how many less upgrades they have compared to runners (and again, everything about them is very very expensive for bad value). Then we get to their slow unload, not affected by speed rune or boons as far as could tell, no prestige upgrades for the time being. - They're competing for a nieche which is (much) better filled by a different unit. I had expected them to be complimentary such as shielding or pushing a lot of the ore pile, they do not fit as what they are now
- Guzzler. Airtime, it's present with even normal runners, first 2/3 of their stack gets vacuumed down, last bit feels like it's in low gravity, hung in the air a dozen seconds before finally getting pulled in and removed, let alone Gorilla arms. Most of an ore's lifetime, isn't spent on the ground, or being picked up by a runner - it's just spent falling, either from the mountain, or in collection. Possibly more of the latter.
- Gorilla Arms. 'small CD' would not change anything, if anything it might make it actively worse. The only use of that upgrade is being able to have an empty inventory pretty much at all times. I imagine just about any CD would make it so that after their first throw they fill themselves up and return, nullifying the actual boost of the upgrade. Duration of intangibility sounds fine, but I'd actually be against force for the previous point. It would instead be better to change the *angle* they throw things at, getting you more distance for the same force and not just floating in space. (They also don't need any boost when right beside the Maw) - Perhaps non-collision could be gradual? Eg a long time when level with the floor, a short time at the top of the screen, and include a gradual shift for an item depending on height. Makes it so items near the existing pile get the time they need if they stay low, and objects higher up still have the physics and collisions and hectic nature you want, a 50/50 solution
- Runners. I actually wouldn't want to see Runner speed capped, without any singular upgrade such as Pixie crack or Rhino legs, or even their fanatical gem devotion, their speed would be perfectly reasonable for the stage of the game it takes to get there. I mean hell at least one of them is a prestige only resource and the other takes a lot of development in a different building (if not also a prestige upgrade). Their speed is helpful, compensates for other upgrades increasing their rest time etc, mythril armour and such still reduces their speed (excluding Rune of Speed, which is still fine up until level 50).
I read a handful of comments down before initially posting and I didn't see any remarks about aggressive reclaiming or force in this regard. Quite honestly I can't see how force would affect it in this way. Calamities that constantly jostle the ore around, sure, but no Pickaxe or Ballista or Laser force ejecting ores
Hope it answered what you wanted
- Bulls do shield runners from rocks a bit, and they are complimentary, because at some point runners become more expensive and bulls are another collector to buy. They can also be efficient if bought early, even if their cost investment is larger. That being said, they definitely still need more testing and tweaking, and there are also more upgrades coming.
- Yeah the issue is how little ore remains on the ground because of aggressive mountain reclaiming, combined with too much force keeping most of the ores in the air, and tons of collectors blazing through whatever is on the ground. Capping speed a little bit is why it would help runners not tunneling through (or making them gather on the way back too). There are certainly a lot of adjustments to still make to keep the engines running smoothly, especially in the chaos of the late game.
- I assumed you didn't like YEET because runners kept standing on one spot, throwing ore into other airborne ore, which made the ore fall to the ground, instead of being carried back and deposited. This is why YEET can be "actively bad" in the late game. Or why else? That's where short CD could help so they YEET and then do a normal collecting/returning. The plan was always to make it scale with distance from the mountain (or to make Enchant Calamitous Force boost YEET), but guzzler's last tier somewhat patched the situation for now. Anyway, the next patch already has bunch of improvements for YEET.
And yeah thanks, I appreciate people's constructive feedback because it helps me with understanding the picture and different perspectives.
- Better to invest in runners more, such as survivability. 'Cost investment is larger' vs 'runners getting more expensive' directly clash with each other. At the point where I feel I have enough materials to supply them, it would be a better purchase for me to dive into lasers to augment falling debris destruction
I haven't tested but I assume the early buy would be competing for space with Runners+ARLTS? Fairly certain that combo would be cheaper and stronger than bulls still, sadly
- Yeet is messy, that's probably the biggest reason. How much it leaves in the air (adding to aggressive reclaiming issue more), how much less efficient it as at collecting. Runners move faster than ore can be thrown, and they throw it over less distance - the travel time of the (yeeted) ore is longer (it feels) than the 'rest time' of the normal runners. If just running back is better (as you say too) then the 'Yeet' aspect of the upgrade, is a downgrade vs just the more capacity. Guzzler does help even things out (at more cost) but imo it's still behind normal runners
The rocks do float in the air for a while, it would be nice if they had more gravity. Haven't seen too much collisions yet but i'm not very lategame. It doesn't take more time, they collect a pile, throw it to the maw, then collect another pile to throw it again or walk it back. That's a ton of time saved compared to walking there and back.