Marvel Champions: Digital Edition

Marvel Champions LCG · By irefrixs

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AIM Jailer and Widow's Bite

A topic by quantumodo created May 08, 2025 Views: 86 Replies: 6

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quantumodo121 days ago

Hi,

In my play against MODOK ([0.5.9.56]-black_widow-modok-(117)-(884869573).json), AIM Jailer (https://marvelcdb.com/card/50120) was revealed from the encounter deck. I had Widow's Bite (https://marvelcdb.com/card/08010) in play and the response of this card triggered, stunning the minion who then got his "When revealed" attack cancelled because of the stun. However, I think that the "When revealed" effect should go strictly first than the "After a minion enters play" response of the Widow's Bite.

Thanks in advance!

irefrixsDeveloper121 days ago

Hi @quantumodo,

Thank you for reporting the issue regarding the interaction between card “08010” (Widow’s Bite) and “50120” (A.I.M. Jailer).

However, we believe this is not a bug because the “When Revealed” ability triggers after a card enters play. Let me provide an example:

Card “01107” (Breakin’ & Takin’) reads:

When Revealed: Place an additional 1 [per_hero] threat here.

If the “When Revealed” ability triggered before the card enters play, it would place threat on that card, and then when the scheme enters play, it would reset its threat back to 2 (as designed by the game rules). This would not make sense.

Thank you for your understanding!

quantumodo121 days ago (1 edit)

Hi,

I am not sure I a gree with that. From the rules, under the "Reveal" keyword:

To reveal an encounter card, a player flips the card faceup and resolves the card, including any keywords and “When Revealed” effects. Resolve revealed encounter cards based on their card type, as follows. If the revealed card is:

• a minion, it enters play engaged with the player revealing the card.

The response in the case of the Widow's Bite is AFTER the minion enters play. By that time, the "When Revealed" effects have already ocurred, because they need to be resolved at the same time that the card is flipped.

Thanks in advance!

irefrixsDeveloper121 days ago

Hi @quantumodo,

Thank you for your response.

Let me provide another example regarding the “When Revealed” ability on a minion:

Card “04115” (Zola’s Mutate) reads:

When Revealed: Discard cards from the top of the encounter deck until a [[Tech]] attachment is discarded. Attach that card to Zola’s Mutate.

A card can only attach to a card that is in play (except for “27025”; in that case, we do not attach). This means that “04115” must be in play before it triggers its “When Revealed” ability.

All effects must trigger one by one, step by step; there is no concept of them being resolved at the same time. If such a mechanism existed, there would be a window for players to select the order in which to trigger cards. Even in that scenario, the effects would still be triggered one by one.

Additionally, a card needs to fully enter play before it triggers its “When Revealed” ability. In this post (https://itch.io/t/4003633/card-01110), it resolves “01110” first and then resolves the “When Revealed” ability.

I hope this helps clarify our position.

quantumodo121 days ago

I think we are saying exactly the same thing. The only issue is with the order. "When revealed effects" are triggered when the card is revelead, which is simultaoneus with entering play (in the case of cards revealed from the encounter deck). After than, effects that happen "After the card enters play" are triggered. Basically, what I am saying is that "When revealed" happens before "After the card enters play".

From the rules, under "When revealed abilities":

When a player reveals a card from the encounter deck, a new scheme stage, or a new villain stage, all “When Revealed” abilities on the card resolve.

From the rules, under "After":

The word “after” refers to a game occurrence that just concluded.

The key here is that for an "After X" effect to happen, the "X" needs to be concluded. In this case, revealing/putting into play needs to be concluded (together with all the "When X" effects) before the "After X" effects take place.

In a nutshell, "When X" always goes before "After X".

Thanks in advance!

irefrixsDeveloper121 days ago

Hi @quantumodo,

Thanks again for taking the time to walk us through your understanding of the rules!

Just to confirm I’m on the same page, you’re proposing this sequence:

1. Send `WhenCardPutIntoPlay`
2. Trigger "When Revealed" ability
3. Send `AfterCardPutIntoPlay`

However, in our current setup, the act of putting a card into play is handled as a single, atomic operation. When a card enters play, our system immediately sends both the WhenCardPutIntoPlay and AfterCardPutIntoPlay messages together. The “When Revealed” ability is then triggered after this entire “put into play” operation has concluded.

So, our current flow looks like this:

1. Put the minion into play (an atomic operation):
    1. Send `WhenCardPutIntoPlay`
    2. Send `AfterCardPutIntoPlay`
2. Trigger "When Revealed" ability

We understand that this ordering might not perfectly mirror the strict interpretation of the rules. However, this approach has proven stable and functional for all the card interactions we’ve encountered so far. Given the potential instability of altering such a fundamental part of the system, we don’t have immediate plans to change it.

It’s also worth noting that the rulebook itself leaves some room for interpretation regarding the precise timing of certain triggered effects during the reveal process, such as when Incite should occur.

If you happen to come across any specific card interactions or scenarios where our current order demonstrably causes an incorrect game state - where the “When Revealed” ability must resolve before AfterCardPutIntoPlay is processed - please do let us know. Concrete examples would be incredibly helpful.

Thanks again for your detailed explanation and for helping us think critically about these rules!

quantumodo120 days ago

Hi,

Yes, I think that summarizes it very well. And I completely understand that it might be difficult to change the implementation at this time. I'll keep an eye open in case I find a situation in which it is critical to have the timing in the other order.

Thanks!