Post by Estharon in Eternum comments

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I LOVE THIS UPDATE!!! KILL ALL THE MEN! TORTURE THEM! ALL WOMYN ARE QUEEN!

Or something like that? I mean, I love strong women. I've been looking forward to Nancy pushing Orion down and riding him for ages. So, why are these strong women suddenly so weak?

You've been writing a great story with strong and loveable women that are as dear to me as a set of renders can be. Why are they devolving into violent sociopaths with the mind of a twitter freak?

What is "Badass"? Is it slaughtering a bunch of incompetents without resistance? If a person is measured by the caliber of their opponents, what does it say about a character if they need to face off against noobs, and still would have died three times over if their opponents hadn't refused to take the shot? How about strong girls facing strong enemies and struggling to overcome them? You could do it for Chang's heist. A competent opponent who was three steps ahead, but the team won by being four steps ahead and utilizing all their strengths. Why not for the ladies?

Then there'a the matter of gratuitous violence and torture. Frankly, I found that obscene display of cruelty extremely disturbing and out of character for this cast of ladies that I adore. Making the opponents into misogynists to justify this sociopathic rampage isn't really helping either. How deranged do you have to be to enjoy torture? There is nothing that can excuse torture, no matter which words you put in the enemies mouth to justify it. I just can't see the cast as the loveable women they originally were after this.

Another issue is consistency. Nancy was a strong woman struggling to support her family, relatable and admirable. Then, she starts facing off against cardboard-thin foils ranting about women in leadership positions, which is just lazy. But I can tolerate a bit of sloppy writing, eyeroll and continue. What broke the camel's back was how this strong woman, who takes what she wants and does everything for her family, sees Gertrude falsely accusing Orion of transphobia - and immediately throws him under the bus to appease her. That's not strength and leadership, it's cowardice. She's not just not defending him, but outright betraying her loved one and siding with the bully out of fear that she might be the next victim. That also made the following interlude with Cicero so much more farcical. Where is the strong and caring Nancy that I loved so much?

The spread of weakness is further observed when we see how no female character is held accountable for their actions, whether it's Maat, Regina, or the cast of heroines. Rape, sexual assault, torture, murder, invasion of privacy, sexism - all is permissible for the ladies, while men are fated to die a horrible death at the drop af a B-word. However, a strong character is one that faces the consequences of their actions, amd that acts with the consequences in mind. This bigotry of low expectations is more demeaning to the female cast than any of those cardboard misogynists could ever be.

But it's not just demeaning to not hold the women to basic standards of human decency - it actively creates hate. It's a common method of punishment to give one person unjust leniency, and see them isolated and punished by their peers. For authors, the more undue favoritism they show a character, the more they will estrange them from the reader. As paradox as it might seem, you need to be merciless to the characters you love.

Now, this will probably be downvoted to hell and back, because this story started as one of the best, and there will be many who don't want to acknowledge the flaws that are leading to its decline. Others might just not care about writing as long as the animations stay awesome as they are. Ironically, that manner of thought is going to accelerate the decline even further.

But I'm not writing this for the fans. I'm writing this for Caribdis, who started writing a wonderful story, and is hopefully wants to keep doing that. I hope this gets through whatever is clouding your mind right now. I love this story, and want it to be as great as it started, all the way to the end. Make your ladies strong again, make them human again, and make your story fun again.

Tanxui2 years ago (1 edit) (+1)(-1)

Ah, a fellow novel writer. Just to simplify your critique
(SPOILERS FOR 0.6):

You didn't like...
1. that Nancy threatened to torture someone.
2. that the girls are trampling all over weaker opponents which is a sign of bad character
3. ...and while doing so, they almost get killed
4. that men in the story are held to much higher moral standards than women
5. that Nancy conceded to Gertrude when she accused Orion of transphobia

Now, here's what I think:

1. This scene was intended to be funny since it's indeed so out of character for her. I get that when she's your favorite character it leaves a bad taste in your mouth, questioning her morals... This might not be the only time she does this. Selective cruelty might be part of her personality now which would not make her the strong character you hoped she would be, sorry about that. But know that noone claims that what she's done is ok, she also knows that herself.

2. I mean... Eternum is a game and they want something. If they're not getting it the simple way then they'll make use of their strengh to get it. What were the girls supposed to do? Not get the gem out of pity? They could've surrendered at any time.

3. Their performance certainly was theatrical to be entertaining. This wasn't inteded to be serious.

4. Noone thinks that what Regina, Maat or Calypso (at the tavern) did was morally ok. What do you think should've happened?

5. Gertrude is an idiot. I'm not even sure what she accused Orion of exactly, she just spewed out words. Nancy somehow ended the confrontation by leaning into it and Orion obviously didn't mind at all. A good reputation with Gertrude isn't worth much, there's no point in clinging to it.

To summarize: You feel that the game sacrificed some signs of strong personality/morals in favor of funny/entertaining moments. You were prbly vibing with Nancy and then the bubble popped. Unfortunately, most players are not as invested in the girls' characters as you are and consider this a good balance between serious and humorous. The game expects you to lean into the ridiculousness a bit more, sorry if that's not what you wanted the game to be.

I'd be happy to have a civilized discussion with you about this!

Estharon2 years ago(-2)

0. I did not write this for you, and my opinion is not up for debate unless you are Caribdis. I will merely point out what you got wrong.

0. b) Your numbers don't line up. That's not conductive to proper debate. So, replying to both sets...

1. No, I am referring to the several accounts of actual torture of actual human beings that occurs during the war scene. Luna is literally demeaning and torturing a fellow human, inflicting pain for fun. But yes, Nancy's threat of torture is another point of contention. And if she knows it's wrong, and still stoops to doing it, then what does that make her but a hypocrite too weak to meet her own standards?

2. I am appalled at the way they trample over weaker characters, but moreso at the pleasure they take in inflicting pain and humiliation. I didn't say they should not get the Gem. I am criticizing the manner of combat. That was not efficient combat in pursuit of a goal. It was showing off, in a cruel and inhumane way that was not necessary to obtaim the Gem of Doom, seeing how Orion just appears in the enemy base anyway. Do you need to torture and humiliate humans for a military distraction? No. In fact, it would be far more effective and less dangerous to bind the enemy forces in a defensive battle.

3. a) I am not criticizing that they almost got killed, but that they acted in a way that should have resulted in death, and that Caribdis chose to bend reality and make their enemies completely incompetent so they would not have to face the consequences of failure, rather than let them overcome a real challenge through struggle and competence.

3. b) There is nothing theatrical or funny about torturing a human being. Do you consider war crimes comedy?

4. a) You are reversing my argument to detract from the fact that safe for a few exceptions, women are not held to moral standards at all, and how that makes their characters unsympathetic and weak. That is not civil debate. The bizarre joy Caribdis finds in killing, torturing, and humiliating male characters is a seperate issue that is quite honestly not as important as the fact that he's making the female characters less likeable by letting them get away with all the misdeeds and crimes they commit.

4. b) If no one thinks what they did is okay, why is Caribdis so reluctant to hold them accountable? Benjamin got killed, for real, after attempting to rape a girl. Maat has been habitually raping people, and no praetorian showed up to kill or even just ban her. Why the double standard? So many men were intentionay portrayed as sleazebags as a pretext for inflicting inhumane levels of pain and humiliation on them before they even commit any misdeeds. But when you have a female sleazebag luring you to the locker and taking non-consensual dick pics, nothing happens. Why the double standard? It shows barely contained hatred for men, but moreso a deep contempt for women. After all, the only ones you would exempt from responsibility are the ones you do not deem capable of bearing it. It's clear nobody gives a damn about the demonization and abuse of men, but I'd expect people to have an issue with blatant misogynistic coddling of women.

5. a) I am not just mad that she conceded, but that she betrayed Orion out of weakness. She was not just abstaining or mediating, but actively talking bad about him. And if Gertrude is an idiot who is not worth clinging to, why would Nancy go so far as to turn on her own loved ones just to stay in her good graces? You say that it's okay because Orion didn't mind, but that's just another issue. He just got betrayed by a person he loved and trusted since he was a kid, and he's not hurt by it? He sees her cave in and turn on him out of weakness, but then goes along with her "strong woman" spiel and calls her his queen? If a loved one turns on you, it hurts. The whole interaction doesn't check out unless you are so deeply contemptuous towards women that you don't expect any sort of integrity or loyalty from them. Which simply can not be true for a strong mother figure that you love.

Your summary is also false. This is not a matter of morals versus comedy, it's about Caribdis turning lovable characters into insane sociopaths, turning desirable women with good human motivations and a strong, kind personality into two-dimensional monsters that have no empathy for their fellow humans if it allows them to satisfy their vanity. He's defiling the characters he poured so much effort into building, and it pains me to see him do it.

Tanxui2 years ago(+1)(-1)

Ok, since you don't want to argue I'll swiftly wrap this up.

Unfortunately, Caribdis will most likely not engage with you; reading, thinking and writing all this takes a long time. If you want to be heard I'd recommend you to keep it short or include a tl;dr.

Here's what I assume is your main point: "On the battlefield, Luna is unnecessarily cruel, which makes her less likeable." I just replayed the scene and I found it genuinely funny. Yeah it's somewhat cruel if you think about it but you're taking this more seriously than intended.

I'm having trouble seeing all this from your perspective, it all seems overdramatized to me. Sorry about that.

Estharon2 years ago(-1)

Funny how you say that after you posted a straw man summary that blatantly twists my words, isn't it?

Tanxui2 years ago(+1)(-1)

Misrepresenting your point was never my intention and I've been transparent enough to summarize how I've interpreted your arguments. I don't care about being right, I'm just curious. But since this discussion is becoming toxic, I'm backing out of it. The stage is all yours.

Estharon2 years ago(-1)

This became toxic the moment you posted that blatantly false summary. But sure, have a good day.

itch.io

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