Post by saitoki in Here's what I've discovered as an adult BL game developer on Itch.io (Viewership) comments

Here's what I've discovered as an adult BL game developer on Itch.io (Viewership) » Comments

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That's was a great write up! I believe there's plenty of Wuxia fan in the western world, but it's unfortunately still a niche in a website like itch.

I noticed your game seem to be using quite a few customary words of the genre that a lot of people won't understand. I also enjoy reading the genre, but can't quite understand some phrases you used in English, because I read it in our own language ( Our language has some root in Chinese, so direct machine translation is quite smooth). Maybe you can ease it by using the closest English equivalent, like using "Master" for the old man for master and pupil relationship.

I would want to make a Wuxia genre VN someday, but I don't quite understand Chinese naming conventions ( western name doesn't need a meaning), or costume standard, or writing some special words (like mentioned above) in a way that English reader can easily understand. Choose appropriate English words without making it sounding weird in ancient Chinese setting is definitely a challenge, not taking in account that the writer first language is English or not.

LinXueLian3 years ago

Thanks for your insight! I'm not sure if it's just a niche on itch.io - it does seem like a niche everywhere else as well. The upside to it being a niche means that it's usually sought after by folk who are specifically and actively looking for it. I feel that if more niche audiences know that itch.io houses Wuxia/Xianxia games, they would visit this platform and we'll have more developers making them since they also share the same niche. But if we're looking to get a lot of views and plays on the get go.... that's not going to happen. It'll take some time before it catches on.

You bring up an interesting point about translations and origin languages. To be honest, I had thought of using simplified English words such as "Master", but they don't always fit the context - "Shifu" doesn't always translate directly to "Master", since "Master" can also mean one from the household or an employer of a servant, and it's a very different thing if it's a martial father ("Shizun"), because it's more clan-based than technical-based ("Shifu"), but like "Shifu", can also mean "Master". As it is, I'm already taking a risk by using the general term, "young master" instead of the more specific "gongzi" and "shaoye", which have different meanings but both can translate to "young master".

If I'd used generalized words for all of them, it'll alienate the ones who are already into the genre as it would confuse them. It would also unfortunately confuse me, since I'm directly translating it from my head to English with these specific meanings. Therefore I'd left some of them directly untranslated - they're shorter, easier to manage, and keep an original flavour that makes Wuxia, well, Wuxia. It's a bit like "-sensei", "-kun" and "-san" suffixes in English-translated Japanese games, novels or comics... swap them out and it'd feel weird to a native English reader who's been exposed to anime translations for a long time. That said, I ultimately chose to write for the native English reader and not the peripheral audience who aren't natively English-language consumers; sometimes you need to choose between a rock and a hard place. That's the challenge of producing stuff for a niche - you tend to need to pick one and stick with it.

Getting into Wuxia is mainly about prolonged exposure, I feel. There are times when I think it isn't so much about educating the audience, but rather inviting them to stay and learn and explore at their own pace. What this means is to make it as enticing as possible, whether it be in character design or humour. This will draw them in, and then they'll figure if they want to know more about the genre or if they don't.

The only thing I can say is that Chinese names don't necessarily require a meaning either - we're sometimes named by our parents without that much thought. There's literally an uncle in my family named "Small Dog" because my grandpa liked dogs, and I'm literally named after the fact that I came out of the womb ass-first. So I wouldn't really worry about names were I you.

The only thing you might want to worry about are the oufits, though. It can look pretty jarring if we don't understand the components and layers of the outfits before tweaking them. The idea is to make them look less like costumes and more of something that fits into the world it's from. But if your consumers are mostly Westerners I don't think it's something to worry too much about either. I can't speak for other Asians, but... where I come from I don't really think it's our culture to call you out on that sorta thing. In turn, the Westerners haven't really called me out for getting anything wrong about Western culture either. I feel we're quite alright on the give-and-take bit.

saitoki3 years ago (1 edit)

Yeah, I do understand that the right way to translate is the hardest part that prevent me from actually try to write one. Many words are without alternatives either: the puplpil who came under the master before you and after you have specific noun to show their seniority etc.

It's the same thing as senpai, kouhai, sensei, nii-san etc in Japan. I noticed in official translation of manga etc they often ommited those titles and replace with characters name. It make sense for westerners because they don't call their sibling " big brother", the stranger lady who is older than you "sister". For Asian, they would consider calling name out rude, and I wouldn't be able to take it seriously if Alphone Elric start calling his brother " Edward". So yeah I understand your concern about confusion it might cause.

I recommend "master" because that words was a favorite in manga translation and Japanese isn't less varied than Chinese when it come to pronoun, I believe most English reader could interpret the difference between "master"- teacher and "master" -owner. The prerson who make the round medicine thing ( what is that called in English again) would be weird to be called potion master tho.

Back to topic, when I was a beginner in the genre, most of the book i read were beginner friendly with detailed explanations on how immortal cultivation works, so I still think some explanation is still required. The specialize nouns, if you don't want to switch them, you might want to add a dictionary system that highlights the words when it first appear and show the english meaning of the text when player click on them (I might have heard of a Renpy code that does that). The advantage of VN is that we could make use of programming to our advantage. I understand that it would be too much trouble for short game xD.

About the clothes, yeah I'm totally not confident to draw them. How many layer of robes, which side going in first, how does the inner layer looks like ~~when they are taken off for a H scene~~ etc require a lot of research. And the problem with Chinese name is that it's hard for a non-Chinese to name a character in Chinese because they are so language specific. It's also hard for a non-Chineses to write something in another ancient culture (though fictional but based a bit on reality). Western style VN is easier probably because the whole world is modernized following the west, and there's not as many hard rule (or if there are, people broke them often enough that the broken rule became the norm).

LinXueLian3 years ago (3 edits) (+1)

Yeah, there's no real right way or wrong way to translate them - which can make it hard in its own way. If we neutralized everything and made them completely western, quite a number of westerners who're already very used to cultivation will find it odd or too dumbed down. And yes, your disciple brothers and sisters will all have seniority and junior names depending on ranking. "Senior Disciple Brother Yi" would be a mouthful compared to "Yi-shixiong". You can't run away from that in cultivation, unfortunately, unless you're making a story about a hermit...

Yeah, there's also the issue of it sounding rude if honorifics were dropped. Alphonse calling Edward by name wouldn't be odd at all since they're westerners from the start. But in an ancient Chinese clan/sect setting? Oh boy.

I don't know about "potion master" but fortunately the ones who make pills can easily be called "alchemists", "herbalists" or more accurately "pill forgers". If they can also make potions and decoctions, the easiest way is to simply call them "pharmacists". It's not so straightforward when making a distinction between "Shifu" and "Shizun" though. Using the latter usually highlights the cuteness of the disciple, after all. As always, the cuteness of a big wolfish clan disciple is a most important thing!

Mm, yeah, I think I know what you mean about footnotes and explanations. A lot of novel sites have modern footnotes (popup tags), that you can click at to find a glossary or explanation of the words. They definitely help newbies with the terms and teach you a bit more about the culture as you go without you needing to refer to a search engine. I write these footnotes when posting cultivation novels on regular sites. But like you mentioned, it's an absolute pain to program that sort of thing for a short VN - and a free one at that where we're not going to get much payout or much thanks for. The cons outweigh the pros, really.

But if it helps, think of it as something folk who already know cultivation can have as street cred! They'd be like, "here's how I can test my knowledge! I no longer need footnotes to understand the game!" In fact, if they're streaming it, they can work as a translator too to the audience and that might give show off their skills and knowledge. There's always a silver lining to doing things on medium to hard mode. We don't always need to spoon-feed our audience. Quite a number may prefer to learn to fish on their own, or show off their fishing skills. It might help to label it for advanced cultivation readers only, which may be what they're looking to be known as.

I see. It does make sense that non-Chinese folk are scared to start because of the naming conventions and cultural differences. Everyone's working hard to make a VN and the last thing we'd want is for folk to laugh at us or tell us off for getting something wrong. As it is, we're already mostly not paid for whatever we're doing... and then there's this additional stress! I totally get ya.

I know I've talked about making Wuxia/Xianxia games more available to others, but honestly, after some retrospective, there's nothing wrong with leaving it as a niche too. It's just that there's this misconception that making Wuxia/Xianxia BL games will get a developer views because The Untamed and Faraway Wanderers are popular. Wuxia/Xianxia's like K-pop; it looks big but not everyone's actually into it. If views makes someone happy, I don't recommend they do Wuxia/Xianxia unless they like the genre, or can market their games very well.

I'm only really making Wuxia/Xianxia games because I so happen to be Chinese and it's naturalized for me. The upside is that I don't really need to market it because people will be clicking on it out of curiosity anyway. It's probably pretty rare to see something ancient Chinese pop up in BL adult games. Even if people are not interested, they would click to see what it is.

But now I find out why Wuxia is rare here. People are too scared to make them.