Post by AlSoKnown in Balance discussion: v0.37

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So roaches are now mostly dangerous when you have the monocle.

Interesting catch. Thankfully, at least for me the most common usage of Monocle is to combine with Rogue’s Quick Shot, which increases the chance to draw enough attacks to kill all roaches in one turn.

I wonder if all item traps like this are intended

I consider anti-synergies with the same attitude as positive synergies, which is that they are good in general as they make more interesting things to decide / think about, but may need balancing in the most extreme cases.

On the ones you indicated, here is my opinion:

vestigal bone vs krampus

That one is ok. Vestigal Bone is very powerful, and has some other similar interactions with forced discard and malus cards. For example new Infected Rat + Scavenger Rat may become quite problematic if left unchecked. Slightly unrelated, but Krampus is also countered by new Shining Armor.

thick tome/abacus vs eye of dilemma

Thick tome negative effect is relatively minor in this case, but with Abacus it is indeed a serious danger. I did suffer with Abacus against other enemies as well, especially Efreet / Ice Dragon. It is mitigated slightly by the fact that most common usage of Abacus is for Mage / Ivory Tower.

Maybe Eye of Dilemma is just generally a bit too strong compared to other eye monsters, but I still think this falls into acceptable range of danger.

mittens vs ice shards

This one I think is most problematic, mostly because the positive effect of Mittens was intended to give power exactly for Frozen cards, so the item contradicts itself in a way. Also, I want to add more ice cards which add Ice Shards to hand, in a similar manner to Burning. The ‘Frozen’ on Ice Shard is intended for such scenario (as well as to buff Ice Dragon a little).

My plan for Mittens was to have another way to enable ice-based builds besides Snowflake, but I am still not quite satisfied with its current version, so open to change it and/or add another item with that goal.

snake eyes vs burning

I did intentionally pick Snake Eyes with Firebreathing once, and it was almost game-winning, so this one can cut both ways. Still, I often like to pick Ember Log in fire builds as a safeguard against unintentionally overflowing hand with Burning.

IMHO the strongest “oops, that was a trap” moment currently is Burnt Pancake vs sigils. Thankfully, it is easily avoidable once you’ve burned (pun intended :) ) yourself once.

Another similar, but more obvious trap is Spiked Collar + Dragon Lance, which is remarkable to me since I did fall for it several time just because I forgot having one of the items.

(Moving ‘greedy’ discussion here for convenience, since it is about balance anyway)

It’s never insignificant and always can potentially fumble all important effects in your remaining hand. So regardless of how much greedy you have, you shouldn’t rely on your remaining hand.

I was actually concerned that low greed values will be too weak / easy to ignore. My preferred design was “fumble floor(greed * 0.03) effects, then fumble 1 extra effect with probability of frac(greed * 0.03)” in other words, keep expected average value, but make random value to differ by at most 1. However, I found it to be too cumbersome to explain in game.

I will think more about it. Also, currently greedy does not interact properly with Sturdy Clamp / Magnet. I will fix it (unless greedy rework will make it unneeded).

Also, what is your opinion on diseased status? In particular, I debated whether Sympthom card should exhaust.

Norbert3395 days ago

for me the most common usage of Monocle is to combine with Rogue’s Quick Shot

Monocle is pretty good in general for helping with burning, among other things. Sometimes I even pick a random range card just to have more chances to get a monocle. I guess at the end of the day this anti-synergy fits, you kind of expect monocle to have a risk when you first read about it.

Maybe with the way burning works, luck is a bit too connected to handling fire. Without it, removing a single burning might take a lot of health and fatigue if you’re unlucky. If I have some healing, I’d prefer having a monocle over fireproof gloves when going to the lava pit.

anti-synergies

Interesting notes. I agree with the general balancing of having these anti-synergies. Come to think of it, only the mittens really seemed like an oversight to me.

I always avoid abacus, since it’s not really that useful to have, and makes chaos realms much more dangerous. On mage, thick tome giving you a hand size of 9 can be almost as bad at times. It’s useful as a quest prerequisite, but I still stopped picking it as a reward.

For the remaining examples, it makes sense that you need to make sure you can deal with the anti-synergy before picking it up.

“fumble floor(greed * 0.03) effects, then fumble 1 extra effect with probability of frac(greed * 0.03)”

Well, you could make stochastic rounding a key word. It’s not nearly as much gambling, but I guess this would still have a similar shortcoming where 2 greedy isn’t all that different from 33 greedy in the short term. Maybe something else would be better than fumbling.

I don’t think it has the same expected average value, because it doesn’t depend on the amount of effects in your hand. As I understand it, currently at 34 greedy all effects are fumbled.

Also, what is your opinion on diseased status? In particular, I debated whether Sympthom card should exhaust.

Isn’t it spelled “symptom”?

I think the diseased status is a good concept. I actually haven’t yet noticed that the card doesn’t exhaust, I just assumed that it exhausts like other malus cards. Whether it exhausts or not, you don’t want to be diseased for too long. So I guess it’s ok if it doesn’t.

AlSoKnown5 days ago

Sometimes I even pick a random range card just to have more chances to get a monocle

I enjoy this part of strategy, and this is the reason I normally play on a few ascension levels below maximum. I usually do not pick ‘remove affinity’ and ‘reduce reward options’ ascensions.

I have vague plans to visually rearrange / group ascensions to better communicate their intended severity.

As a small example, with affinity, you can also play in the opposite direction – picking Monocle will increase the chance of encountering cards with random ranges.

I’d prefer having a monocle over fireproof gloves when going to the lava pit.

On high stages, Fireproof Gloves do help significantly against enemies’ Burn damage. In fact, I had to nerf them a few versions ago since they previously prevented 100% of Burn damage, completely countering hardest fire monsters.

Conversely, there are cases when controlled small self-damage is beneficial (Enduring Fist, Embroidery Needle, Pipette, Pythos Dwelling, etc), and Burning with Monocle is a potential synergy in these cases.

I always avoid abacus, since it’s not really that useful to have

Interesting. I almost auto-pick Abacus with Mage, since increased Ivory Tower block is (usually) enough to offset the spikes of enemy damage. Also, I feel I was punished for having Abacus by Frozen Giant / Ice Dragon far more often than by Eye of Dilemma.

I agree that Abacus is less useful in other scenarios. My second-place in frequency is probably in dexterity-scaling Rogue builds for Juggling. I also remember using it with Immolate and Bird of Hermes with some success. In theory it should be very good with Thermal Fracture, but I never once encountered that combo.

fumble floor(greed * 0.03) effects I don’t think it has the same expected average value, because it doesn’t depend on the amount

I meant floor(greed * 0.03 * number of effects) effects

Isn’t it spelled “symptom”?

Yes, noticed it too when posting my previous message. Fixed.

Norbert3394 days ago

I enjoy this part of strategy, and this is the reason I normally play on a few ascension levels below maximum. I usually do not pick ‘remove affinity’ and ‘reduce reward options’ ascensions.

Yeah, I guess this aspect of strategy is only the quests on full ascensions, and I do feel like I’m missing out on some builds, for example I never managed to pull off an ice build. So I do plan on playing more without these ascensions at some point. But I also like to kind of explore and master one way of playing the game at a time, so for now I mostly stick to max ascensions.

I’d prefer having a monocle over fireproof gloves when going to the lava pit.

On high stages, Fireproof Gloves do help significantly against enemies’ Burn damage.

It’s true that in more specific circumstances, fireproof gloves can be better.

It’s difficult to guess how dangerous burning practically is because it might be easy to unintentionally savescum if you do encounter really bad luck with burning.

I almost auto-pick Abacus with Mage, since increased Ivory Tower block is (usually) enough to offset the spikes of enemy damage. Also, I feel I was punished for having Abacus by Frozen Giant / Ice Dragon far more often than by Eye of Dilemma.

Right, if you don’t have Ivory Tower, those would more often be a problem with using abacus.

It might be a max ascensions thing, one of mage’s starting deck weaknesses is a lack of offense, so Eyes of Dilemma are one of the main threats, because you can’t always avoid the Chaos Realms. And Ivory Tower is already good enough, after all the game doesn’t assume that you’ll find Abacus.

My second-place usage of abacus was with second chance / brainstorm. I guess on a character that could reliably deal with 3 (4?) eyes as well as an Ice Dragon etc., it can be good to pick up abacus. But that’s already a pretty strong character unless the abacus itself makes the difference.

I meant floor(greed * 0.03 * number of effects) effects

Ah, I see. That’s also better in that one regard. But yeah, this seems like it would be convoluted to explain in total.

itch.io

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