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No Hypens | Also other things

A topic by Lightskinche created Sep 02, 2023 Views: 282 Replies: 5
Viewing posts 1 to 2

Originally only for this first hyphens bit, but then I decided to just do a full review.

The majority of demo 1.6 of 'Lovesick Darlings' was rather enjoyable; the writing did what it needed and eventually 'disappeared' as I imagined the scenes before me. 

Fear of Grammar | Stop with the Hyphens

However, at some point, the author(s) got afraid of the full stop.  Suddenly, characters were interrupting each other left and right and the scenes felt awkward. And it happened when characters weren't even cutting each other off-- I assume it was meant for a falling down or abrupt sort of tone, i.e: 'Okay-' which somehow feels different than 'Okay.' I can understand it and it does technically get the job done, but it sort of results in the game suddenly feeling less professional, and it felt as if the writing dipped in quality. I am the one who likes long-winded, flowery, purple sort of prose with intention, metaphor, meaning, and creative grammar usage. Now I am not expecting that from a visual novel and I can deal with simple writing, too, but you can hopefully see how the game suddenly spitting out sentence fragments instead of whole sentences was quite against my favored writing.

It should not be that Japanese visual novels translations read better than some parts of this home-grown English title. However, this is mainly just my opinion, I'm sure it isn't a game-breaking thing for most-- I mean I still finished the demo and I said that I like writing which is the exact opposite of that which was written in the demo-- but please take this into consideration. And, yes, I am the one named 'TheMessallation' on twitter who has said very similar things; I just wanted to be sure that this message about these hyphens was received. 

Jayda is best girl... why?

In other news, I went full dark-skinned tomboy waifu and maxed out Jayda, but I ensured to keep Stephanie and Maisy content with me as well. And, actually, I was a bit confused as to why Jayda was quite literally the panacea throughout. She was mature, already was in love with the protagonist, had every interest in common with the protagonist, and, finally, I find that she had struggles that were reasonable. 

Now this is tricky since, I mean, this 'invalidates' the struggles of the other characters, but what I mean is that, like, in the real world, someone could reasonably help her out here with her self-doubt and her leaving the art class is something I see all the time in real life with competitive programs. It feels like Sydney could reasonably help her out, and I liked how he encouraged her to try being playing Marvel versus Capcom competitively-- that is, it all feels plausible. Honestly, I don't ever play Smash-esque (proper term?) games so that is just my best guess for what they were playing although could've just been Smash, (the most recent one) too.

However-- and this is my uninformed opinion since I have not played the other routes-- at first glance, Nacho is inevitable and Maisy has so many other issues, honestly; and Stephanie's home situation would take Australian CPS to fix. So to me, the player, it feels like Jayda was always and will always be 'the right route.' Christ, I mean I found myself actively annoyed at Syd for chasing after Stephanie who I feel probably has a crush on Maisy when Jayda who has less issues, more affection (I mean, she even waited for Syd out in the cold with only pajamas on-- that moved me in real life) and everything in common. A route system is great, however, I just feel that it's sort of pointless when there feels like there is only one best route. Just my opinion, though, I don't really think this is meant to be a real dating simulator, but, seriously, if this was real life, I would just stick with Jayda and help out Maisy and Stephanie when I can-- sort of like how you can only ease the pain of a terminally ill patient.

Final Remarks | Seriously, why are we in Australia

First things first, why is this game set in Australia. It sounds like a silly question, but, seriously what is the purpose of that in writing? Just the city Sydney that Sydney shares a name with? It was only funny the first time, and then no more. Most Japanese visual novels I've played do not state that they are in Japan until a character who is not from Japan is mentioned (similar to Kudryavka Noumi in Little Busters) since it just does not matter. The fact they are in Australia also means that a lot of jokes sometimes don't work. Like, I do not know what the Australian version of CPS is so it felt awkward when, earlier in this post, I had to literally say 'Australian CPS' since I do not want to read a Wikipedia page on this. Same thing with the FBI thing Sydney does near the end of the game, if I recall correctly. Australia does not have the FBI, that is an American agency. 

Not to mention, that these characters don't even use proper Australian slang. There is no thong, no c*nt, no cobbler, and the speakers do not sound Australian. I know that not every Australian has a crazy accent, but if you are going to hammer it in that we are in Australia, I would expect to hear undeniably Australian accent. So I ask, again, why are we in Australia besides the name pun?

Developer(+1)

Hello there! Thanks so much for writing and sharing your thoughts. This was a really interesting post, and reading it kind of felt like a rollercoaster. But in a good way, I promise! I hope I can adequately respond to your comments, because they were interesting to read!

First of all, I'm glad you enjoyed the writing overall - based on your first comment. I suppose the fact that you finished the demo means something kept you hooked, which is the intention with any story!

Duly noted with the hyphens. I see what you mean when you say they feel less professional, but my intention is indeed to keep the flow of dialogue more natural. As you can see in the game, it's very much a dialogue-heavy story so long prose is substituted with very chatty characters who talk over each other sometimes. I do think it's a good observation though.

I enjoyed reading your breakdown as to why "Jayda" is best girl! I think your reasoning makes sense, and it's actually kind of in-line with Syd's arc in that relationship journey. Being that he very slowly realizes that Jayda is an insanely good match for him as he is, and he's crazy for not realizing how she feels about him. His relationship arc with Maisy and Steph take very different directions though, and their own stories offer something totally different to Jayda's more typical love story for players to enjoy.

That said, don't hesitate to spend time with Jayda! She's very deserving of affection and I'm glad her story was appealing to you. I respect the pragmatic approach, and that is the point of these choice-based games! Jayda is also the most popular, so you're in good company with the players.

And lastly, regarding the setting, I set the story in Australia because I myself grew up (mostly) in Australia and it just felt like the most natural setting for me to tell this grounded coming-of-age story. In the same way an American will write about growing up in the US, or a Japanese person might write about growing up in Japan, I decided to write about growing up in Eastern Australia. There's no bigger or deeper reason really, and Syd's name double-meaning was something I came up with on the spot way well after naming him. Plus, I promise that no one my age or below says "cobbler"! It's a pretty old-fashioned bit of slang, and c-bombs are usually dropped more casually by "bogans" in Australia... not the nerdy kids at an upper middle-class artsy school. Not to mention, Americans are super offended by the word so I try to hold back a bit to avoid shocking people (and rating boards) too much. The slang and mannerisms snuck into the script are a bit more sneaky and less stereotypical, that they're pretty rarely noticed!

Also, in the very conversation where Syd jokes about the FBI, Stuart corrects Syd and points out that the FBI aren't an Australian organization! I recognize it in-universe. And regarding the Child Services (in Australia, the organizations differ between states and have changed names over history, so I used a generic name in Steph's storyline) being ineffective with helping Steph, I grew up knowing two different families that were totally dismissed by Child Services for not being in dire enough situations because of manipulative parents. So, sadly it does happen and unfortunately people like Steph do slip between the cracks. Her storyline is absolutely about someone who has slipped between the cracks and works very hard to look and act like she hasn't.

Thanks so much for taking the time to share your thoughts. It's genuinely appreciated, and I'm thankful you tried my game! I hope that Jayda charmed you enough to consider checking the full game when it's finally ready, and that maybe eventaully the other character's stories may interest you too! :)

(1 edit)

Thanks for the quick reply. I have a tendency to bash things I like, if I did not like this game, I would've simply stopped playing and moved on; I wrote criticism so that it would hopefully grow better. That would be why this rollercoaster of a read stands as it does.  Maybe I should start prefacing things like that? Well I'll do it now anyway.

Preface: I'm fond of* your game and you as a developer and writer. Keep that in mind throughout. I will write 'mean' because then you'll have to directly say 'I will not include this, thank you.' rather than saying 'Nice observation bud' to my critiques.

I was being too nice and so you elegantly brushed everything off-- I guess I made it sound very minor and that things were 'mostly good' which is not true. I know this behavior when I see it since I, personally, see it very, very often. Programmers, writers, and musicians do this thing where they pretend to listen or 'like' criticism. And it seems true because they are adults and so they don't lash out, but in reality they don't care about it since they believe that they are right. 

Tell any programmer to switch from snake case to camel or vise versa and you'll see it. Actually told one recently to comment their code even if they work alone-- they made up plenty of reasons why it was fine (just as you did with the 'it makes things flow better' with the hyphens) but this programmer couldn't explain why they often forget pieces of their program. Showed them some OpenGL code (ever try embedding Lua with ANSI C?) with heavily commented parts and I was still able-- after all this time-- to explain most of it to them. Maybe you're not always right, programmer. Writer.

Now this is your remainder that I like you, and your game-- I'm just really hammering in some things that you probably won't even change in the end, but I am telling you so that I can't say that I didn't try and because being 'nice' to you will result in you not listening.

1. None of my criticisms were minor. I really was being nice by stating/implying that. First off, I cannot stand when I see writers go for the easy option. That is, when writers just use their hometown, or country. Sure, it works for you, right? But, it would probably work better if you put more thought behind it. 

Now, if it was I who authored this, I would consider making the city the protagonist has bad relations with be extremely cold. Barren. Devoid of all things good. Have him be the coldest there when the cast goes, and have the other characters 'warm' him up metaphorically and literally. It's cold because there is nothing there for him. But he can stand it because his friends are with him. Like, I don't know, when they're huddled together for a march? Simple stuff, really, but it appears that your literature class passed you by without word. I cannot name a single "complex" metaphor throughout at least Jayda's route. It's all really, really basic. So I am not surprised-- and I mean that as kindly as possible. 

So, let's use our thinking caps. Now, you'd certainly like these characters to leave an impression? There's a "recent" character that left an impression that recently resurfaced. Walter White. Why? 'I am the one who knocks.' Very simple metaphor. Very powerful. So, let's do something simple but powerful. Jayda likes video games very much. Why not use things related to video games? 

'Sorry, Sydney. This is my Game Over. I am quitting art class.'

'Well why don't you press continue?'

Like you see how that leaves an impact even if it is a little cheesy? Come on, man! You care about these characters or do you care about 'funny scenes' and 'quirky moments' that you use them for? They're people! They do not speak like you, they have different perspectives on right and wrong, and they deserve memorable moments and lines. Stop f*cking using them and tossing them away like garbage!

(Unlike the previous example, you can add this in without changing much since if you're afraid of editing your narrative. Since it's always perfect the first time, am I right? Sarcasm. Name one program you wrote that compiled right the first time and do not say 'Hello World.') 

There should always be meaning behind everything you put into a piece. Even if it is just a dating sim-- you seem to want it to be deep, right? Touch on some things? Why not put in some real effort and not hand wave anything that's too difficult? That's a limitation you're imposing-- stop leaving on Vsync. You are very driven, why are you being lazy and pretending to take criticism on your writing? 

To the first point, you don't have to put him in Russia, you don't even have to move out of Australia, just make some reference to something metaphorical for once rather than everything be so suffocating generic that I can't stand going back to really do any other route-- that's real 'not-nice' reason for why I did not bother to do the other routes. Funny since I liked Jayda who is the tomboy archetype personified, so I am guilty, but so are you, writer.

Reminder. I like you and your game. That is why I telling you why it sucks. And how it can be better, I hope you'll at least considering these things for maybe even just future works.

2. Grammar. Just in general alludes you. Yes you can technically have every character interrupt every one else and call it 'lively.' You can do that, and I can also come in and say that it is annoying, not representative to how 'lively' events function, and results in a worse experience for the reader who is thrown half-finished gibberish with a hyphen at the end. Imagine if. I just started not finishing my-

Annoying, right? By default you will always think your writing is great because, well, you wrote it. I am here to correct that. 

Seriously, a really well written part that immerses you deep into a story and then that happens. I, at least, remembered that this is an indie project, with no editors-- that is, no one to talk sense into the author-- and solely a one man operation. Ah. I see now. I was wrong to expect high-quality dialogue.  That is what happened in my mind the first time my immersion broke due to these hyphens.

Also, add in some semicolons. Not in dialogue-- you use em-dashes for that-- but in thoughts or stage direction. In fact, here, example:

'I was just thinking-- actually, didja hear about...' (Notice: this interruption reads nicely and shows the speaker trailing. Good dialogue.)

Deep in thought, I happened upon a peculiar sight; LOVE_INTEREST_NAME upon the top step of the stairwell... the very top... far past the gate that bars the roof. (Notice, this has a unique sentence structure, sets up something interesting, and is not terrible to read. Whoever is thinking this has a very dreamy sort of way of thinking. Maisy wouldn't think like this, right? Maybe consider the voices of your characters rather than being generic 'teenager' with all of them.) 

So, in short, better sentence structure could spice things up for you. I don't recall much stage direction, anyway, but when it was there, it was like 'I ran into X at Y' and it's so, so repetitive. And during dialogue, everyone sounds the same, like I said. But, we'll get to dialogue in 4.

3. Why is it that we only really see dialogue here? Like we see thoughts, but they aren't really complex and do not characterize our protagonist very much. Not that I recall-- please do correct me. Very just 'Maisy was sad. I am worried.' Personally, I connect with a character better if he has thoughts that either coincide with mine or show a reasonable counter-perspective that I can respect. And I have a tendency towards thoughtful characters. That is, characters with 'dreamy' voices as I've exemplified above. Tangent end.

Now, our lovely protagonist does neither of that which I've recommended and instead just swoons over Stephine without a great reason. Yes, she is 'cool' and 'mysterious' and I suppose our protagonist finds that attractive, obviously. But, that is not a very compelling reason to anyone besides him. Like, a crush is often irrational in real life, but this is not real life and it would help if I didn't actively hate every time our protagonist mouthed off about Stephanie. Want to do a thing where it's like 'oh, but it was right in front of me all along!' then make sure that the audience cares enough to get there.  

A counter perspective does not bother me nor many other readers but it needs to be reasonable-- this is why people like villains more than heroes some times, since we should like to see the villains on screen... but still want them to lose. 

I'm not writing for you, either figure out how to make our protagonist be more mature about this, or just let everyone who does Maisy/Jayda's route be constantly annoyed at the protagonist's daft behavior. I don't care that he's in high school, I am sick and tired of dumb, illogically driven characters who care about things I don't care about. Make me care, please! Or don't, your choice.

(If you expect most players to probably like Jayda instantly, or even Maisy, then maybe make sure that it is more tolerable for us fellow tomboy enjoyers/ friend to lovers (lovers) as we force the protagonist past his irrational love for Stephanie. Seriously, it is annoying as it stands.)

This is your reminder that I like you, and your game. Also, this a PSA for why people really need to stop being nice to indie developers. Nobody here really cared to mention these glaring issues-- like, I don't expect anyone to hammer in the use of metaphors, but seriously nobody thought to maybe tell you that having background images with real people kind of throws off the animated vibe?  Change that, please. It is really weird seeing our lovable Maisy right next to a very normal human walking their dog or something.

4. Okay, so no hyphens right, but oh man! We need 'lively' and 'quirky' dialogue. I joke, but you do sound like you'd like quirk in your characters, not in a bad way. First off, you want them to interrupt each other? Consider letting them finish their sentence then putting a proper em-dash (with two hypens '--' like how I do) at the end so that the reader gets the full thought from that character and understands that they were interrupted. Every book, and VN does this. Only fanfiction does silly things like this, and I love fanfiction.. but not in my VNs.

Also, you can maybe bring back our old friend, 'stage direction' rather than shoving half-completed sentences past the reader. Maybe 'we hurried past X before they could even open their mouth' and so skipping the. 

Half. Completed thought. Seriously, and I mean this kindly, I thought that I was watching a 12 year old write after the first hypen incident occured. Like, the kids who do 'I-' all the time. That sounded like you. That is not good. It is beyond just 'unprofessional.' People will pay money for this once it's released! Maybe write better?

5. Since it's clear that you do not have the voice in your head that tells you your writing sucks-- the voice I have-- I'll learn you something.

 Code = Prose

Consider it. Treat this as such and you may find it reading quite nicely. I have a love of prose over and beyond narrative. So when I see you maim your work like this, it's like reading bad code, in a way, except my brain is the compiler. And yours seems to have warnings turned off. 

Bad code works, but god do I hate having to read, test, and inevitably debug it. I got dragged out of my immersion by these false em-dashes (usually you put two hyphens '--' to form an em-dash which is used for interruption in dialogue-- or for interrupting yourself like this. You did not do this and it bothered me even more-- I know I said this but really, dude, you're a good writer so stop being so bad!) which not ruined the professional vibe everything had with the sprites, music, and so on to such a degree that I almost just skipped those needless parts. 

Although said 'professional' vibe was already tainted by the terrible background photographs that in no way fit with anime characters on top of them. People will spend money on this! Take it seriously! Stop hand waving things because I know you probably had the,

'Man, this one has people in it. Probably stands out.'

'Ah, it's fine. Nobody'll notice-- my vision anyways.'

Which is wrong. I noticed. 

6. Cross examination time. Also I admit that I was just wrong about Australian slang, sorry about that. This is for once not a big deal, but maybe add in a few 'mates' or something. Anyway,

Stuart corrects Syd and points out that the FBI aren't an Australian organization! I recognize it in-universe.

That does not make it alright. You are in Australia, why would the FBI be on his mind? Also what is even the time period for this game? Like, Jayda had the GAMECUBE in her house. Like, I know people keep old consoles, but that came out a really long time ago, why is that there? I'm nitpicking, but seriously, but a time period. I wouldn't mind flip phones, personally, I think they're quaint and a good excuse to not have our cast on phones all day. (Speaking of which, the font used for phone conversations with Maisy really made me think that we were on a flip phone.)

That was off topic, but, seriously. You're in Australia. I guess you can do things like this and 'acknowledge' it and have it 'be funny' but why not just say, like, the ACIC and teach me something new while being funny?

I hope that Jayda charmed you enough to consider checking the full game

She did. She really did. And she really shouldn't have, but it was like an oasis in a desert. Every route looked terrible yet Jayda was like the beacon of hope through those dark times. I will probably buy the full game. 

and that maybe eventually the other character's stories may interest you too! :)

They won't. Until I can stand the writing a bit more. I already don't like them due to how the perspective of the game is written. Maisy sounds just stupid not sympathetic and it's hard to feel bad for her stupidity when she keeps degrading Jayda-- I see her doing it, she cuts her off because she just can't let someone talk, right? And then Stephine did not wait with us for the bus outside, freezing half to death. 

Yes, she is a reserved character. In fact, that is literally her 'flaw' just as what I said about Maisy is her 'flaw.' But I am simply not willing to look past these flaws on top of bad writing. I allowed the bad writing for Jayda because her route was very charming, their routes are not and unless I am being 'made up' to with great writing, motivations, and analysis on Syd's part, I am just not sitting through it in all honesty. People will read a day out at the park if it is written nicely. Think about that.

Final Thoughts

Like I said, I will most likely buy the full product. Most likely. But it depends on the price. In all honestly, a game of this quality should be no more than $15. $20+ VNs have full voice acting, great grammar, great motivations, great backgrounds, and great CGs. I am going to hurt your feelings and say that the CGs look strange. Cute sometimes, but especially with Jayda's, it looks lacking compared to the rest of the art-- it's not that it's bad, more just inconsistent. Same problem with the literal photographic backgrounds with real human beings. People are paying for this. Or at least I hope they will. I wanna see this thing work out.

You earned a very passionate fan in me, I really want to see these characters be memorable, the location be memorable, and this whole thing turn out great-- that is why I really hammered down. It sucks that you probably will 'do what you think is right.' But I can only give my very strong opinions. 

I probably will not respond to you once you make your response-- I'll read it, but here's the reasoning: if it's negative and you don't like me for stating why your game sucks and needs to be better for the market, then there is no need to argue, right? But, if it's positive like I hope, and you at least try or tell me that you can't but liked the thoughts, then there is still no need for further discussion.

Developer

Well, just as you said I may not like your response, I have a feeling you may not like mine either.

I genuinely appreciate that you took the time to write all of this and share your thoughts. I welcome any and all feedback, from anyone at any time. You've given me a lot to consider, and I'd be lying if I said I agree with all of it, it's still something I appreciate hearing. I'm not gonna promise that everything you suggested here will be implemented into the game (stuff like the art assets are pretty much locked in 100% for example), but I appreciated your points about coding and prose.

And you're absolutely not the first person to mention the photo-realistic backgrounds having real people feeling wrong. For that point, my artistic intention there is to follow the vibe of things like Gorillaz and Roger Rabbit. The mesh of animated characters into photo-realistic settings and background is something I've always found artistically appealing, but I 100% understand it's not for everyone.

Also, I have heard frustration about Syd's obsession with Steph from players before too. As the game goes on, and choices are made, his attraction and focus on her fades. Especially if he spends more time with Jayda or Maisy. I can see why it's frustrating in the demo though. My intention with Syd's crush on Steph is to help characterize him and make him more than just player avatar, and for our decisions as players to inform his character rather than define it. I know that style of VN protag isn't for everyone though.

Anyways you might consider this another softball reply from me, but I respect that you can have any opinion you like on this game. I'm happy that it stimulated this much analysis and discussion from you, because that's ultimately the point of art at the end of the day!

(1 edit) (+1)

Sorry to butt in, but my two cents is, irregardless of the quality of criticism, this Light fella was pretty rude and condescending about how he conveyed it. I just think that no matter how much this is all  simply from the goodness of his heart as a passionate fan wanting to see you make a great game, or how much he believes in tough love, that's no way to go talking about someone's work, especially when it's someone you don't even know. You may not share my feelings and just appreciate the feedback like you said, but if not, man, is that reasonable.

Developer

I actually agree with you 100%. I wouldn't really accept seeing this kind of tone regarding anyone else's work, but when it comes to my stuff I'm happy to just take it. I feel like it's my job as a creator to listen and read whenever someone shares their thoughts on my work.

But thank you for your kind words! I appreciate you wanting to share your two cents, especially in my defence :)

But to be clear, I don't agree with most of the things they said here. And especially not with the language and tone they used. And that's okay, just as they're free to make their criticisms, I'm allowed to accept and/or deny as much as I wish!