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Zeno Rogue

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A member registered Jul 22, 2015 · View creator page →

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I would like to draw attention that USA is not the only country which has recently restricted access to abortion -- supporting American women but not supporting e.g. Polish women does not feel perfect to me. The bundle contains games from people around the world and will be bought by people around the world.

Thanks!

Yeah, some of the trophies are probably hard -- the times are based on a computer solver, who sometimes finds ways to cut off time that I was not expecting. (Although a few seconds over the solver's solution are allowed.)

Nil is homogeneous (the same at every reference point) but anisotropic (not the same in every direction). Although it is rotationally symmetric (the up/down direction is special, but you can rotate around this axis).

No idea about actual planets :) I do not think anybody has studied that.

Thanks for playing!

After crashing into a castle or running into edge, you can reverse the time (the default key is 'b') or restart the game.

If you collect the four triangles fast enough, you win. (The first track has two goal times, one should be very easy, and the other one should be very hard.) Then you can go to another track in the menu. (Other tracks have different shapes, and also their goals are sometimes different than "collect all the triangles fast enough".)

Yeah, usually "negative" qualifiers in mathematics mean some specific things. "Irrational number" does not mean numbers like i or Aleph-Zero even though they are not rational numbers. It means a *real* number that is not rational. Discovery of such numbers was quite important in math. Same as with non-Euclidean geometry, the discovery that all the axioms could be satisfied but not the fifth one was important again. So it originally meant just that, not satisfy the 5th but satisfy all the others. Some people extend this but they usually try to keep the spirit (hard to explain Nil geometry using axioms, but the spirit of  parallel axiom is no longer there...). Sometimes "non-X Y" is meant to include "X Y" as a special case :)

Anyway, thanks for the nice game! I have added a mention to my article.

Fixed, thanks! Addresses automatically converted to links and then still pointing bad to wrong stuff when the address is edited are annoying :/

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I see the point about the platform returning to the same location after going around the hole, it is indeed a bit similar to would happen in the universal cover. However, IIRC if you move the platform A, go around the hole to find a yet unmoved platform, and then go back, the platform A also becomes unmoved, so it is still not really the same thing...

I would say that the parallel axiom is not violated (the spirit of this axiom is that parallel lines behave weirdly, they converge/diverge, or in 3D they could also twist -- since the gravity is preserved in most of the game, the gravity lines act like normal parallel lines, same with the lines orthogonal to them.). The only place I have found so far where gravity lines cross (in some sense) is the "sphere" level.

> Furthermore, from Euclid’s axioms, it follows that a line segment is the shortest path between two points, which is absolutely untrue in all “R^n with portals” worlds due to a trivial counterexample.

I would not agree with this, because by this logic, any L-shaped level is non-Euclidean because the shortest path is not straight.

It is still piecewise straight, so we should allow for piecewise straight lines here, and in portal spaces shortest paths are again piecewise straight lines (well, unless the obstacles are curved).

Also this is not really a property of non-Euclidean geometry -- shortest lines are straight lines in all classic non-Euclidean geometries.

(again, in both cases the weirdness happens due to topological rather than geometrical effects)

I do not think "non-Euclidean geometry" is that common, mostly they say just "non-Euclidean" without geometry (one thing contributing to the confusion is CodeParade's "non-Euclidean worlds" viral video, he thinks that "non-Euclidean geometry" should not be used for any weird space but just "non-Euclidean" is fine -- this makes some sense but it still confuses people so I do not agree with him). "Impossible space" is what most people who care say. Thanks for considering this!

No (RogueViz is free so it is not applicable).

Seems you are confusing geometry and topology here and in the description on GitHub... (geometry is a local property that is changed when you stretch the space and topology is changed when you cut/glue the space -- portals change the topology, not the geometry; in the "sphere" level you have the topology of the sphere but the geometry is Euclidean, not spherical. The geometry is Euclidean everywhere, at least from what I have seen so far)

Also not sure why you say it is "the universal cover of a massively twisted space"? This does not seem to be accurate either. (From this description I would expect a world in the shape of e.g. an annulus that always looks like an annulus, but the contents are different when you go around the hole -- this would be the cover of the annulus, and if you never go back no matter how many times you go around, that would be the universal cover (it is more fun with two holes as you get the full binary tell then); here, the walls also sometimes all change when you go around a hole)

A bit similar 2D portals were used in the 7DRLs by Jeff Lait (Jacob's Matrix was the first one IIRC and Vicious Orcs was another one), although he did not do that much with this concept.

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https://zenorogue.itch.io/bringris

Where did you get this from? The Wikipedia page you cite clearly disagrees with you:

His influence has led to the current usage of the term "non-Euclidean geometry" to mean either "hyperbolic" or "elliptic" geometry.

It does not say that "replacing the parallel postulate" is an example (it says this is what you do, and there are also kinematic geometries) and also "replacing the parallel postulate" means that you keep all the other postulates. If other postulates are not honoured either, it is in no way closer to hyperbolic geometry.

And I am still using non-Euclidean geometry wider than the Wikipedia line above, to mean "a geometry which is not Euclidean" like you want, i.e., including three-dimensional geometries like Solv and Nil. They are geometries i.e. they stretch the space, while portals do not stretch the space, they change the topology, not the geometry. For example, all triangles will still have angles which sum to 180 degrees, while in hyperbolic geometry, all have less.

Not sure what you mean -- with portals you still get locally Euclidean space  --  "locally" usually means "in a sufficiently small neighborhood", and even if you are on a portal, you cannot tell from a small neighborhood, all the points in that small neighborhood will have only one straight line connecting them through the neighborhood, and all the small triangles will add to 180 degrees.

It does not make much sense to say that a game is non-Euclidean just because it violates some Euclid's axioms -- then you could say that any game taking place in a bounded world is non-Euclidean because Euclid's axioms say that lines can be extended infinitely, or any grid-based game, or any game with no space at all, or any 3D game because Euclid's axioms are for planar geometry, etc.

The interesting thing is replacing Euclid's parallel axiom while all the remaining ones remain unchanged. (Likewise when you say "irrational number" you still mean a real number, not anything that is a number and not rational.) Euclid thought that this was impossible (and that the parallel axiom actually follows from the other ones), so did people for 2000 years, and when it was discovered this was possible, this was called "non-Euclidean geometry". Later extended to other things similar in style, but portals do something totally different.

It is not a sphere, just the usual Pacman map displayed with a cool projection. A sphere cannot be tiled with squares like this (a beautiful math fact). Also the surface of a sphere is non-Euclidean so the angles on it work differently. If you made a loop and returned to your original location, the world would be rotated because of this (another beautiful math fact). Non-Euclidean geometry produces a very different gameplay.

There are some games in truly non-Euclidean (spherical and hyperbolic) variants, but there is no (publicly available) Pacman yet I think. There are some a bit like Pacman but still far away.

Nice illusory balls! :) Somehow rotation does not work for me correctly in the Web version, it is constantly rotating, unless I set the rotation speed to 0 (but then I cannot rotate).

Please do not call it non-Euclidean though... non-Euclidean geometry is a completely different thing, portals change the topology, but the geometry remains Euclidean. Non-Euclidean geometry is so strange and cool that gamers will not even notice the strangeness (but they will still notice it is cool). Unfortunately some gamers recently have started confusing people by calling portals non-Euclidean :(

I believe this problem was caused by my system updating the compiler used to create the executables -- it created "hyper.exe" requiring new DLLs while the DLLs included were still old.

Is it fixed in the current version?

Cool that searching for non-Euclidean gets you cool games like this!

Might be helpful to make it clear that the web version is an "endless demo" -- I played it and wondered what you mean in "the game gets increasingly complex", it did not seem to change when I played the web version, and I was not sure how to access 60 levels. (Any reason why the full version is not playable anyway?)

Sometimes the game freezes -- when I create a match, I see colorful triangles flying from the sphere to the moves counter, and my points increase at that time; but sometimes, the triangles never seem to end, and the points also increase infinitely. However, you don't get a high score, because the only way out of this to get out of this seems to be killing the game. (Got this twice so far)

https://zenorogue.itch.io/bringris

https://zenorogue.itch.io/bringris

We have worlds looping on itself since Pacman and Asteroids though... at some point somebody started calling that "non-Euclidean" and that stuck, while it is something completely different.

I have explored the hat room again, and I still do not see this TBH... all the parallax effects look Euclidean.

Does not really feel non-Euclidean, more like a Euclidean space with portals (a completely different thing than non-Euclidean geometry). Still beautiful!

I wonder how it would look if you projected this to actual non-Euclidean geometry (probably S2xE) with non-Euclidean rendering and physics. (Something like the video below)


Bringris has been updated, and flashes can be disabled now.

I get this too -- it does not seem to have any adverse effects for me, though (everything that should be shown is shown).

Thanks!

Sure, I can add such an option. So should the levels just disappear immediately? Or with a simpler animation when the level smoothly turns black?

I have no experience with people sensitive to flashing lights. In Bringris, the corners of the screen are also flashing (in some sense) while you  move the piece. And probably in some other situations, depending on what you have built and how you move. Is this not a problem for them? That would be more difficult to solve.

Got the same problem under Linux: I click "interact" on the podium, and I do not know what to do. From your answer I have learned that I had to click the text box (which is tricky since I do not see the mouse cursor). Nice work!

Yeah, sometimes people have problems running Bringris :( Not sure why, it is the same engine as HyperRogue, which does not seem to have such problems.

But they have reported that the game runs correctly with the "Vista compatibility mode" on -- have you tried that?

There is an existing game called Snakelike: https://store.steampowered.com/app/845110/Snakelike/

You might want to change the name, it is not good when people find something else when googling the name of your game.

Thanks for playing Bringris and feedback!

While the lack of vertical rotations makes the game harder, the frequencies of various pieces have been adjusted to make it possible to play the game for a long time. Some players say that they can play almost indefinitely.

Added a Mac version (although it is quite slow on my old MacBook Air).

Thanks for playing!

This sounds weird... but it does not appear to be a serious problem?

Your English is great! Though probably it would be better to ask this on the page of HyperRogue, as it is confusing and harder to find that way :)

Regarding inspirations, well, I have always been interested in both mathematics and game design, so naturally I wanted to create a game in non-Euclidean geometry. I have written a series of blogposts about all the inspirations of HyperRogue: http://zenorogue.blogspot.com/search/label/sources (I must update it...). Thanks, we are planning to keep working on it :)

I have collected cool games and simulations are in the "geometry" link I have posted above. 

 

This game reminds me of this math poem: http://digitaleditions.walsworthprintgroup.com/article/Run%2C+Hero%2C+Run%21/238...

Do you know it? We like it very much :)

Looks cool! Is this actually related to quantum mechanics in any way, or just a cool name?

Looking at the screenshots, you do not seem to be using non-Euclidean geometry  (non-Euclidean geometry is a completely different thing than portals -- portals change topology but not geometry, see here).

Thanks for the nice words! Yeah, it is very difficult to market :(

Thanks for the great game!

Love the name (hated "Non-Euclidean Room", the geometry is Euclidean here, it is just the topology which is weird).

For the sequel maybe the third-turn space could be used for something, it has similar Escher's Relativity effects, but is a complete manifold, not walls with portals (a bit like in Manifold Garden but connected in a more Escheresque way).

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Neither portals nor gravity changes have anything to do with non-Euclidean geometry. Escheresque is what you mean :)

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Experimenting with topology is cool! Calling donuts, Klein bottles or Möbius strips non-Euclidean is not correct though (they have different topologies but their geometries are Euclidean). Also the bullets on the sphere move along the parallels. In a correct, non-Euclidean implementation of spherical geometry they should not.

Jak się naciśnie "gdzie dwóch się bije tam trzeci korzysta" w momencie gdy został tylko 1 przeciwnik, to gra się wiesza. A przynajmniej ja nie umiem nic zrobić. Powinna być możliwość cofnięcia wyboru przysłowia.

I think that's a very cool feature :) But if the players google "non-Euclidean", they will find the mathematical definitions and get confused, as it means something completely different (you are describing an Euclidean manifold / impossible space, not a non-Euclidean space). Why not just say something like "carriages that defy the laws of physics and are larger on the inside than they appear from the outside "?

How do "non-Euclidean carriages" work? ("Non-Euclidean" means a space where Euclid's parallel postulate is not satisfied (parallel lines do not act like in Euclidean space and thus there are e.g. no rectangles) ... unfortunately many gamers use "non-Euclidean" for anything that has any kind of weird rules.)

Thanks for reporting the problems! Agreed, there is some room for improvement. I think I should create actual Linux packages -- this should solve the problems. I will do this later :)