Like I said, I'm looking forward to the epic redemption arc. Vulgor, up until the very last scene with him, has made zero effort to "change his ways". I don't really see how anyone can like Vulgor, unless they are either simping over how attractive they find him, or because they have an abuser/humiliation/domination fetish.
P.S. It's not me downvoting your comments.
SPOILERS!
I was very surprised at the length of this update! I liked the development of multiple characters throughout. I thought mc was more relatable and more enjoyable to read in this chapter. The palace scene had some juicy tension. Although, sometimes the pacing crawled to a snail's pace. For example, to me, the conversation with Verissa in the forest lasted reaalllyy long and was very exposition-heavy.
I'm glad the mc and Vulgor are finally getting along. However, I was a little thrown off at how quickly the mc got over / kept minimizing the attack that gave him a neck bruise. The excuses mc was making for Vulgor's behavior reminded me of a battered housewife with stockholm syndrome.
I also read the latest build:
I would love to be casually offered a million dollars.
The moment alone with Tyson was very sweet. I like the tension you are building between their relationship, I'm excited to see where that leads.
Nothing really struck out that made me feel the need to put my critic glasses on.
Well I suppose that's all I had to say! Thanks for the interesting conversation. If you ever want a brutally honest unbiased opinion about something let me know!
I just finished the latest build for FBTW.
This game is very reminiscent of Adastra, and given that Adastra was mentioned in the survey, I'm going to assume it was a big inspiration for this game. This is unsurprising considering Adastra is one of the greatest VNs ever created.
-! SPOILERS !-
Positive Thoughts:
- The plot is interesting and captivating
- The hook and inciting incident of this game were so fun to read and really exciting.
- The feast scene was absolutely amazing. The drama, the tension, the excitement were so juicy I couldn't get enough of it.
- The Verissa pool moon scene along with the Ranok mc love confession were absolutely beautifully written.
- The artwork is really immersive and I'm surprised at how much there is.
- I like how all the characters are written, except for one.
- I appreciate this romance so far. It's paced really nicely and feels realistic. I think Ranok is very fleshed out.
Critical Thoughts:
- I'm sorry but I really do not like the mc. The way he thinks, talks, acts, reacts to things just annoys the shit out of me. I like the way every other character is written, except for the one I have to play as. I just don't relate to him on any level and find him very melodramatic, which can make for a frustrating read.
This changes when he finally leaves the house to go to the feast, I felt like I could finally relate to his actions and thoughts.
Unfortunately, when Ranok suggests the collar, the mc has a full-on temper tantrum like he's 12 years old and I suddenly hate him again.
I think this is the balance between having a predefined character (Dave from Password, Chase from Echo) and having a blank slate character (mc from FBtW, mc from Adastra, mc from Andromeda Six). When I don't see the character at all, I have no memories, and I'm allowed to name him, I feel as though I'm meant to impose myself onto the character, and thus his actions should feel like actions that I might take. Obviously, it's impossible to design a blank slate mc that can be relatable to every personality type; however, at the very minimum, I wish the character's actions would just feel rational and justified and not over the top. Unfortunately, the mc in this game frequently reacts to things and behaves in ways that aren't rational and that are over the top, and it frustrates me as a reader. Of the VN's I've read, I think Adastra has done the blank slate mc the best, save for near the last quarter of the game where he just becomes too bitchy and tries to start fights with everyone.
- The time in between the inciting incident and the feast is sooo long and slow. There were cute and exciting moments sprinkled in, but for the most part, it feels like a slogfest. This immediately changed with the feast/Verissa moon pool/Love confession scenes, which were fantastically written. I'm hoping helping Vul at the butcher shop will be an exciting read.
- Sometimes I find the descriptions are a little too flowery and over the top and make me cringe while reading.
- The last part with Vul and the dress gave me absolute whiplash in a frustrating way. Out of nowhere, Vul talks to and about the mc in the most evil, vile, dehumanizing, disgusting way possible, and the mc, Ranok, and Verissa barely react to it. And then it's just forgotten and Vul is neutral/friendly towards mc again. Then later on while the mc is talking to Verissa, mc seems to excuse the behavior? Like how can the mc have such an intense and visceral reaction to the word "defective", but seems mostly unphased to what Vul was saying?
-"It's like the US health service" Seriously...? You're telling for the first time, out of nowhere, casually, that America exists in this world. And that mc is aware that it exists. And that he is invested in American politics? This is disappointing and feels like an incredibly lazy way to inject your politics into the game. I'm hoping it was just a simple oversight in the editing process.
I love bouncing thoughts off with you and hearing the "behind the scenes" of your intentions. This is really fun! xD
Just my thoughts: The player is playing through the eyes and mind of Dave, who clearly adores his dad. If you want the reader to empathize with Dave, I feel it would be important to try and get the reader to understand why Dave loves his dad so much, and to try and get the reader to love dad as much as possible also (Even through the depression dreams). This would definitely make the day 14 payoff so much more painful (in the best way)
Day 10 -
I think you may have misinterpreted me, I totally understand that this isn't how dad might've actually responded to Dave's problem. The reader has no clue how dad would have actually responded. The "perturbing" thing to me was: Is that really the advice Dave thinks his dad would give him in this situation? Because to me the advice just seemed shallow and cliched. This leads me to think Dave believes his dad would only give him such unhelpful advice as, "Oh you think your friends are going to die? Do your best! Everyone dies!". Perhaps I'm just viewing this all wrong!
If you're saying that Dave's subconscious is only giving Dave the advice he wants to hear. I just can't think of "do your best!" as fitting at this moment. (I think this may be our biggest disagreement!)
Also, when I was reading this scene I assumed that dad not knowing the time or date was enough to clue Dave that he was dreaming.
Day 13 -
Hm... Sometimes I do daydream random scenarios in my head, particularly when I'm really into something. I am also working on my own VN and sometimes when I'm doing homework I'll just space out and imagine an entire fight scene in my head. Although I suppose in daydreams your subconscious isn't messing with you as hard as it might in a dream. But I could definitely see readers being confused as to whether this was a memory or a daydream. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 90% of readers get this easily.
Day 14 (2) -
For the living room, that makes perfect sense. This makes me feel so dumb because I read that and thought, "Well that's random, why does Dave hate the living room?". And then in the very next flashback scene you hint at it, but I still don't get it. I think maybe if you used the doorway/entrance it might have struck me better? (cuz that's where Dave and the reader find out) But who knows; I probably still wouldn't have made the connection.
I definitely understood the colorblind part, that was one of the more obvious depression motifs.
Day 15 -
I was just thinking about in movies whenever a character is haunted by something but then comes to accept it and gets closure, the thing that was haunting them appears one last time in a small happy moment before disappearing. So like Dave has accepted his dad is dead, so in his last dream his dad walks out of the door (closure) and is replaced by his friend whom he cares about (new worldview). I know it can seem a little cheesy, but I am a total sap for that type of stuff. Especially considering all the build-up towards Dave getting closure.
When I kept reading the lines "Just give up, Dave. Let whatever happens, happen." I kept thinking that maybe Jack or dad said it previously and I just missed it. But if you're saying it's from the morphic resonance stuff that would be a pretty juicy revelation.
If you ever want me to stfu and stop flooding your comments just let me know lol.
How did you expect readers to identify with dad? What about dad did you think would really make readers fall in love with him?
Like I mentioned before, on my first playthrough I found dad just to be too perfect and overly happy/cheery, which just causes me to estrange from him.
Like before, I will play through all of Dave's dreams again equipped with knowledge of what your intentions were while writing them. I'm wondering what readers should be feeling or what information they should be gaining with each dream.
You said:
- Dave is haunted by his subconscious version of dad
- Dreams are not intended to be happy memories
- Dad is popular being he's hot and potentially treated as a surrogate father
I'm also going to go into these dreams by thinking about how to make a good father figure:
- A role model
- Recognize when their children are struggling with something
- Talking about serious topics, but with care
- Spending time together and bonding
Day 10 -
GOAL: Introduce Dad and show how Dave remembered his dad's personality.
- I think this is scene is quite effective for the most part.
- Why does Dave ask for his dad's name? Does he think it's an imposter? If so it's swept under the rug quite quickly.
- The part that perturbs me the most are the lines between "...and that they're going to die because of me." and "...but maybe make it less heavy if you can."
Is this how Dave thinks his dad would respond if Dave was terrified he was going to cause someone to die? The advice seems a little cliched.
If I were to change this, I would make dad respond back with questions: "What do you think you should do?", "Why do you think they are going to die?", "What have you done to protect them?", "Have you done all you could?", "Is this truly what you are so afraid of?", etc. Personally, when I need advice I love questions like these. It really makes me think about what I truly want and need to do.
- I think also maybe what's subconsciously messing with me is that one sprite where dad is smiling with his eyes closed and fist in the air, like he is super pumped. Sometimes it's just too much compared to what's written in his dialogue. When I just ignore it and let my mind's eye play out the scene, it's less jarring.
Day 11-
GOAL: Witness how dad handles Dave amidst turbulent marriage? tbh I don't know, I find it very unclear.
Suggestion:
If my interpretation of the goal is correct, perhaps a more gripping way to do this is to plop Dave right at the dinner table with mom and dad, all is normal and Dave just observes the scene until it quickly devolves into them fighting (This whole time the argument is just garbled nonsense). Dave just sits there silently but is internally very stressed out. Dad notices this and sets a hand on Dave's shoulder, waking Dave from his trance. Mom has vanished from the room and dad is looking at Dave directly in the eyes. Dad apologizes and tries to cheer Dave up with jokes and hearty laughter.
Day 12 Dream 1 -
GOAL: Show how lonely Dave feels
Suggestion:
Maybe Dave could wake up to the sound of a door closing and a car driving off (hinting that someone has left the house). Dave could teleport to a nearby coffee shop and see all his friends sitting at a table, talking and laughing together. Dave tries to approach them but can't move. He tries to call out to them but they can't hear him. Dave returns back home, but while walking past Tyson's home he sees Tyson's empty spot on his front porch. He thinks briefly about Tyson. He continues walking home and sees mom's car in the driveway. He enters his home and calls out to his mom but receives no response.
Day 12 Dream 2 -
GOAL: Dave wants to figure out why he can't cry.
I don't have much to say about this. It's quick, simple, emotional, and I love the ending.
Day 13 -
GOAL: Dave wants to know if he's the reason for his parents' issues.
- Is this supposed to be a memory or just a scenario Dave conjured in his mind? It reads more like a memory. This is curious considering every other one of these sequences are dreams.
- Dave reads as much younger in this scene.
- In the previous dream sequences, Dave is clearly doubting so many things in his life. It would make sense for Dave to feel like he's the reason for his parent's marital issues, but dad immediately qualms those fears, which doesn't seem entirely consistent, if I'm making any sense at all. If Dave is at the peak of his depression, you'd think he'd get a negative dream, right? Something that reinforces his fears.
Day 14 Dream 1 -
GOAL: Dave's largest internal fear (inadequacy? being useless?) comes to fruition and becomes too much for him.
This scene was done quite well.
Just this one line "That's it, Dave... It'll all be over soon." isn't my favorite. Personally, I would just remove it and let Jack go straight to killing.
Day 14 Dream 2 -
GOAL: I'm not really sure, but the reader figures out why Dave can't cry
- Dave recalls his friends, where they lived on his street, and who came over to his house.
- He says he never liked spending time in the living room. (I don't understand this)
- Different colors all look the same
- Dad appears in Dave's doorway, Dave asks why he died, Dad doesn't respond.
- Dave wonders why he isn't crying
I'm struggling to find the link between all of this.
Day 14 Memories -
GOAL: Everything comes crashing down and Dave finally accepts what happened
- Unfortunately, most of the humorous parts aren't really landing with me.
- I still feel in this part dad is too unnaturally happy-go-lucky. I don't know at what age Dave's dad died, but this scene makes me think Dave is like 12 years old (I can't remember a point where it was mentioned). I think if I knew Dave's age I would find the dialogue a lot more realistic.
- The last moment with Dave and dad (paired with Tyson finding that strange ID card in path D) makes me think you're planning a phat plot twist soon. But otherwise, the last moment with dad is very very sweet. Even sadder knowing it's Dave's last moment with him.
- For when Dave hears the bad news, for the lines between "But no, Hoyt told me..." and "...in a daze. Dad was dead." I strongly believe you could really flesh this out. Make the reader feel everything Dave was feeling at that moment. The feeling of a child's entire world crashing down in an instant.
- And the part after in the kitchen makes me cry again. It's so well written and the art is fantastic too (I imagine the finished art will make the scene even more powerful). Great work lol.
Day 15 -
I love that you dream about the route character and what you'd like to truly say to them, instead of a sad dream about dad or being alone.
What if before the character comes into view, you had dad briefly appear and shoot Dave a smile before walking out the door?
I have two personal scenes in my mind that I can't shake:
- Dave and dad are hanging out before someone is in danger; dad heroically saves them while Dave bears witness. This wouldn't be a memory, but more to show that Dave thinks dad is super cool and a hero. But it doesn't really fit into any of the other dream sequences, other than maybe the first one. I have recently watched the Harry Potter movies and dumbledore is a fantastic father figure. Harry tries to emulate Dumbledore's kindness and is awestruck by Dumbledore's level of power. In my opinion, being a policeman is one of the most virtuous professions out there (despite the often negative reputation they get.) So Dave (and the reader) witnessing dad perform a heroic act would be very impactful.
- Dave and dad riding around in the police cruiser with the red and blue lights on. It's going well until Dave asks a serious question and looks over to the driver's seat where he finds his dad suddenly vanished, leaving Dave all alone. Police lights still flooding the scene for xtra dramatic effect. Could represent Dave feeling alone, Dave missing his dad, foreshadows the reason dad died, dad suddenly leaving Dave's life.
I hope I didn't seem too bitchy there. Everything I wrote (except the drama portion) were my initial gut reactions that I jotted in my notepad. I never intended to share them uncensored, but it seemed to me like you would appreciate them so I did. I just want you to know that nothing I say comes from a place of malice towards you, even if it does seem harsh. It makes me happy that I can somehow give you helpful feedback on your game.
I'm curious, do I seem like a nightmare type of reader? One who seemingly doesn't see a lot of things you intended your readers to see?
And, do you find that most people receive path D well and that I happen to be an outlier?
What do you expect players to feel when they play D (at least the current public build)?
[Path D]
I didn't make the connection that Dave shutting down and Tyson become rabid were in response to trauma. Their behavior in path D become a lot more clear now. I think if I made that connection (and also better understood the true extent of Dave and Tyson's brotherly relationship), I would have viewed Path D a lot differently. I think with that lack of knowledge I just substituted myself into the story and kept thinking, "wow I would never behave in such a completely irrational way". And just irrational decision after irrational decision just built up the rage inside me until I decided there was no other correct path other than a genocide run.
To test this hypothesis: I am going to reread all of Dean Path D and give you my thoughts as I go through it. I first played it maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.
Day 11 - Murder
Re-reading the Sal murder scene is certainly more gruesome than I remember. Maybe if the scene were a lot slower and gorier and more descriptive I would have been more affected by it? Who knows.
Day 11 - Just left the kitchen and are now in the forest
- From what I remember when I first finished path D, I was very frustrated with how all the characters were babying Dave. Even Orlando, who is a big baby himself. I think my frustration with Tyson started with how many times he treated Dave like a helpless child. I think I probably yelled at my monitor a few times, "Tyson, shut the fuck up!".
- But right now while re-reading, with the current knowledge I have about your intentions, the path is a lot more bearable. Tyson's actions seem reasonable and he doesn't strike me as going too far, except shouting at Dave to shut the fuck up and then ignoring him because Dave dared to speak.
Day 11 - Just finished the scene where you visit Roswell and Dean's bodies
This scene is way better written than I remembered. It was actually a very sweet moment, save for the very end. I just wish you would push it further; just let it linger a little longer. It feels like the moment going from Roswell to Dean is a little abrupt. Maybe something like (Ignore if you don't like people back seating your writing):
"I stared at Roswell's unmoving chest for another minute, recalling the first time he wore his red scarf (some cute memory idk). Eventually, I drearily moved my eyes to Dean, sitting peacefully against the wall just 10 feet away. My physical exhaustion matched my mental exhaustion as I labored myself off the floor and walked over to him, sitting next to Dean just as I had with Roswell. Orlando hesitated for a moment, but eventually joined me."
Maybe for the Dean moment, Dave could rub Dean's fur and describe what it feels like, as well as further describing what Dean looks like at this moment. I think this way you can make the scene more impactful for the reader, while also keeping Dave emotionally numb.
I also feel the transition into feeling hatred for Sal was a little abrupt. Maybe have Dave stare at the axe wound, where he zones out and gets a vivid recollection of the murder, to which he then responds with fury and a desire for revenge.
But also: Concerning Sal, is it not out of character for Dave to feel a sudden tunnel vision urge for bloodthirsty revenge? It seems like more of a Tyson response to trauma than a Dave response. I don't recall any other point in the story where Dave has had a similar reaction. On my current replay of Path D this is the first thing that is really striking me as very odd behavior.
But also (part 2): I didn't understand why Dave said this line but didn't really mean it: "I just... I want the closure, I think. I want a chance to say goodbye." (said to Orlando outside of the mansion) Did Dave really not want to closure for his dead
Day 11 - I'm at the option to kill or forgive Sal.
During my first playthrough I had already decided to do a genocide run by this point, so I didn't really care about anything Sal said.
Now I clearly feel a lot more sympathy for Sal and will forgive him <3
Day 11 - just finished day 11
- I distinctly remember on my first playthrough that Tyson ignoring me in the kitchen pissed me off so badly because it was the cherry on top of the awful way he was acting before (and Dave just standing there whimpering did not help.) Later when Tyson makes it really clear that he's only doing it because he wants to protect Dave, it just didn't resonate with me. The reasoning was not enough to just forgive so quickly. And I remember specifically when Tyson first hugs Dave, and then later hugs him around the middle while crying, I just imagined Dave standing there stoically, not reacting, not forgiving (at least this is how I wanted Dave to react). But clearly the text describes Dave as feeling very sympathetic for Tyson.
- But now with fresh calm eyes and new information, these scenes don't trigger me as much. Although I still just do not feel sympathy for Dave or Tyson.
Day 12 - Tyson and Dave have just left the mansion to escape
- At this point, to enjoy the story I must depersonalize myself from Dave (if this is even the correct word to use. ) I have to look at him from an omniscient view and just observe him, rather than try to live through him, if that makes any sense at all. I know Dave is an already defined character with a name, backstory, personality, internal struggle, etc. But It's already day 12 and Tyson is still an abusive scary control freak, and Dave is still pathetic and weak, and there is no choice I can make that will render him less insufferable (maybe there is and I'm just too dull to realize it. Or maybe I'm just not meant to change it and I need to suck it up. ) So I have to make the choice to depersonalize myself from Dave.
- Also: Like I mentioned after just finishing day 11, we already know without ambiguity that Tyson is behaving like a control freak because he wants to protect Dave. We got a tear-filled revelation from Tyson. But after Dave takes Sal inside the mansion and everyone being in the kitchen together, Tyson is being even more of a control freak than ever. If the tear-filled revelation scene was supposed to make me feel sympathetic for Tyson, this scene has certainly stripped away any sympathy I might have had.
- When we go up to the bedroom and Tyson asks "Tell me when I did wrong by you," the first thought I had both the first time I played and now while replaying was: "Literally all of the last 2 days."
Day 12 - End of demo
My thoughts while reading "I love you, Ty": Poor Dave is stuck in Stockholm syndrome.
- Reflection -
I believe I fully understand why Tyson and Dave act the way do for days 10 to 12, but understanding just isn't enough to make me sympathize with these characters. Maybe I'm just an outlier and 95% of readers sympathize greatly with them, I really couldn't say.
[For when I said, "and the power to save the characters is gone after day 10."]
I've played Dean Path D and then all Path As except for Hoss'. The only instance I can remember where you have the choice to save a character past day 10 is path D when you tell Sal not to kill himself. I don't remember any moment on path A where you have the choice to save someone's life. This is only for the current public build. I'm assuming at least on Path D it will eventually be possible to have everyone die (or rescue the post 10 survivors).
The reason I mentioned this at all was because, at least for path A, the playtime between day 10 and day 15 is very long. A long time with no life-saving. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to have this gap, but it's just the life-saving fun aspect is absent for a while.
[Dad]
Apologies if I missed something, but every dream sequence with Dave's dad is them talking in the kitchen or in Dave's room. Maybe we could get memories of dad teaching Dave to play baseball, or dad taking Dave for a ride in his police cruiser, or dad taking Dave out to the mall to buy a new video game, or even better, Dave made some poor choice and gets in trouble and dad had to give some real tough love advice that made Dave develop into who he is today.
Maybe I'm wrong, but for people who had good relationships with their fathers, memories like these stick out profoundly. And I think for people who never had good relationships with their father, or had no father, they would crave to have memories like these. It's very sad to think about.
[Mental health approach]
I can totally understand your approach to the mental health aspects of the story. I personally did not enter this game expecting a very nuanced and sensitive approach to that, nor did I expect it for most of the game until it became evident that Dave was depressed. When you wrote Dave's symptoms of depression and suicidal thoughts, did you expect the readers to become emotional or very sad while reading it? Or was that not your goal at all?
I'm really glad you took it well, that's really respectable. To be honest, I held back a lot in my review, and even then I thought I might have been too harsh.
But in case you'd still like some juicy feedback: I wrote some fresh reactions I took in my notepad app and I will share them with you uncensored.
[My initial reaction to finishing path D]
Unfortunately, after day 10, I stopped feeling much excitement. I think it was just hard for me to grow attached to the characters. The first ending path I played was Dean path D, and when Roswell and Dean died, I just felt nothing. When Dave and Orlando re-enter the room where Tyson moved the bodies, I thought I was going to get a really sad tear-jerking scene, but I didn't. It ended really quickly and I had like no time to mourn Dean's death. Orlando was just being annoying and crying the entire time (throughout all of post day 10). And Tyson... oh Tyson... the Tyson moments past day 10 on path D put an extremely bad taste in my mouth. I had a very unenjoyable and frustrating time reading. And it dragged on for soooooo long. Tyson ignores everything you say. Screams at you. Physically drags you. Ignores you to your face when you are speaking. (and lets not forget where he previously TRIED TO RAPE YOU). and Dave just... takes it. He's just silent. He doesn't react in any way. And the worst part is that Dave FEELS BAD for Tyson. its like COME ON DAVE. It's one thing If I were witnessing this from another character's perspective. But the fact that I have to play from the perspective of such a weak and pathetic character and have zero choice to stop any of it is what's so frustrating. When the rabbit came out of nowhere I was praying it would kill Tyson, because that's how much I loathed him. I was so annoyed with the story at this point I just wanted to do a genocide run. I liked that I was given the choice to make Sal kill himself, so I could successfully fill the role of someone who reached their breaking point with these annoying characters and decided to kill them all.
[Drama (I'm writing this today because I had no notes on it. My memory might be fuzzy on some parts of the story.)]
I'm not a professional novel writer or editor, so it's hard for me to pinpoint exactly why most dramatic sequences didn't really have the intended effect on me.
- For Dave’s suicide moments, I think they happened pretty abruptly. I didn't feel any sort of build-up to them and Dave had never struggled with suicidal thoughts previously. I suppose you could say Dave clearly being depressed during this period was hint enough that Dave might consider suicide, but I still just wasn't feeling it. I wasn't feeling the hopelessness and despair enough.
- The part on day 6 where you stop Tyson from going into the woods and he assaults Dave. By this scene, I didn't really like Tyson that much. The scene started off good and emotional, I was empathizing with Dave and Tyson, and then Tyson nearly rapes Dave. That just makes me dislike Tyson even more. I'm not sensitive to rapes being in a story, but I think that it actively harms this scene and any sympathy I may have for Tyson. Like I'm currently replaying the scene and I just feel so bad for Dave. Dave literally saved Tyson's life, and all he gets in return is a bloody nose and a near-rape. And Dave just casually carries on a conversation afterward. I would be completely traumatized in a situation like this.
- Anything Orlando crying just made me laugh to be honest. Maybe this was because I played Dean Path D first, which (from what I recall) had Orlando in a constant state of crying. So any route I played after Dean path D that had Orlando crying I was like "here we go again".
- That one moment on Path D where Tyson cries and begs for you to not run off or something, by that point I was just so far gone as a reader that I just wanted to complete my genocide route. Nothing after that point could have made me emotional.
- The scene where Sal kills Dean and Roswell with an axe didn't really do anything for me. I don’t remember feeling any shock or sadness. I don’t really know why I didn’t have any strong reaction towards it. But the part afterward where you revisit the bodies with Orlando. I already talked about this previously, but this is where you really have a chance to punch the reader in the gut and make them cry like a baby.
- The scene where you and Roswell kiss. This scene gave me whiplash it was so sudden. I get the impression you intended to give this relationship more build-up but just haven't done it yet.
- The Dave's dad death scene was really good because you led up to it over a couple of days with the dream sequences (Which I admittedly always found pretty corny. Dave's dad is just way too unnaturally cheery. I would understand if this is supposed to be Dave's memories and how he views his father, however, I don't think this is the best way to get the reader to like the father.) And then you had this long flashback sequence with Tyson and Dad that eventually culminates in Dave getting the news. The illustrations with the police lights were really effective (My one single complaint with this scene is that I wish you let it linger a little longer. Truly made the reader feel exactly how Dave was feeling at that moment. If you did that the scene would have completely killed me and I would probably have needed to take a break.) And then you cut back to the present with Dave finally releasing all the tears he had been holding back (Honestly makes me choke up a little even remembering it.)
- I also was really touched by those scenes where you stop Dean from eating the mushroom and then you ask him if he was suicidal. The actions and dialogue just felt really realistic. And then that moment where you are in the greenhouse and recall the vision you saw and start to get chocked up, and Dean pulls you into a comforting hug. That was some effective writing.
In conclusion, if I had to come up with a reason why many of the dramatic moments didn't resonate with me, it's either because I didn't feel proper build-up to the event, and/or the dialogue/characters’ actions weren’t realistic enough or there was too much melodrama. I think that even if I don't have much attachment to a character, if the drama is set up right I would take the drama more seriously and/or get an emotional reaction out of it.
Also: I've been reflecting a little on what I enjoy most about Password. I did notice a consistent drop in my fun-levels after day 7.
Between day 1 and 7, I was really interested in the different character relationships with Dave, the vault and the passwords, having the power to save the characters, and the mystery of OZ and Benson.
After day 7 the game switches. Oswald and Benson's identities are revealed, you no longer need to play detective to try and find passwords (except for day 10), and the power to save the characters is gone after day 10. What remains is the character relationships, trying to survive, and the mystery of the rabbit/Orlando's family/vault, etc. The only thing I look forward to post day 10 is talking to the character whose route I'm currently on. That's the story I care about the most. The rabbit is also interesting too, but unfortunately he makes up a very small portion of the time between day 7 and day 15.
In summary, there is a lot of stuff that goes on between day 7 and day 15, but the only thing that I crave the most is spending time with the character I've chosen for my route. There's nothing else that gets me as excited as I was on days 1 to 7.
[Introduction]
I personally found the introduction to be too slow, and introducing almost every character in such a short time is a little overwhelming. I find the slow introduction sequences to be a common theme among visual novels, which I'm not a fan of, but I always try to stick through it because they usually get more exciting after the first 30-60 minutes.
[Character choices]
Sometimes the characters say things or behave in a way that doesn't make any sense to me. Like I find myself asking "why the fuck would you do/say that" a lot while playing this game (Mostly after day 7), and it makes me grow frustrated with the characters. One example was on Path A when Dave decided to punch Benson. It just felt so random and out of character. This also happened particularly on Path D.
Another thing that occurred several times is characters saying something like "hey, that's mean!". Like something you would say to a little child, not to another adult. I remember this happening with Dave's dad in the dream sequences, Dean said it to Dave once or twice, and then a few other times sprinkled throughout the routes. It just feels very out of place reading that.
[In regards to prose (but like you said this might be handled by the editor if they find it to be an issue)]
I found there to be an overreliance on the ellipses during dialogue. There were moments where an ellipses was used like every other line and sometimes multiple times per line.
Over the past month, I've downloaded 30 gay visual novels without reading any summaries or comments, and I've finished about 9 of them so far. I frequently saw recommendations to play Password, so I decided to give it a shot after finishing Echo. I have finished most of the game and unlocked nearly all of the gallery photos. I have mostly positive things to say about Password, but also some mixed feelings. It's fairly easy to be hypercritical and nitpick all the issues, so I'll try to keep my criticisms simple.
-! SPOILER WARNING !-
Positive Thoughts:
- I played Dean's path first (cuz I'm a sucker for romance, and I was able to look past Dean's overbearing perviness) and the day 6 death really caught me off guard. The feeling of going back and entering in the password, seeing the trauma memory, and then telling Dean about it was soooo good. I mean soo good. I was having full body chills and I was just on the complete edge of my seat. It was really really exciting.
- Looking for the day 7 password, I played through all the other routes up to day 7, jotting down other passwords and hints in my notepad app. That was fun and felt intellectually stimulating. The adrenaline rush feeling definitely went down each time I entered the correct passwords, but that was to be expected.
- I appreciated the lack of spelling errors. I've played VN's that had really fascinating story/atmospheres, and then a random spelling mistake just pops out and totally breaks the immersion.
- The title screen music absolutely slaps. Sometimes I just sit on it for a minute just to do a little dance in my chair.
- The level of branching paths/dialogue is actually astonishing. I don't believe I've ever seen a visual novel this narratively complex before. And it's so cool that it's done in a way where sometimes you need to progress in one route in order to progress in a different route.
- I commend the way you approached Dave's internal struggle with his father's death. The climax of that subplot made me very emotional.
Critical Thoughts:
- I find the writing style a little hard to digest at times; like I find myself often needing to take breaks after like only 30 minutes of playing (primarily after day 7). I wish the narrative tried to spend more time creating interesting scenes in my mind's eye. If I can humbly recommend ways to make the writing a little easier to digest: Try to employ the technique of "show, don't tell" more often. There are also videos on youtube about cutting filler words that just bog down the narrative.
- Sometimes the characters speak in ways that aren't normal for "American" young adults in current times. Like I've caught Dave and Orlando saying things like "What am I meant to do?" or "Where shall we go?". I can't help but do a double-take when I see dialogue like that from anyone but Benson or Oswald.
- While I mentioned there were virtually no spelling errors that I could find, I was thrown off by the amount of missing commas when they were needed, the inconsistent use of the oxford comma, and the semicolon often being used incorrectly. I would suggest looking up the grammar rules behind using commas and semicolons. In terms of orthography, these were the biggest issues I encountered.
- I'm a sucker for some good drama, and this game has a lot of it, but it's very hit or miss for me. Sometimes the emotional moments hit hard (telling Dean you saw him die, Dave breaking down when Tyson reveals what happened to his dad), other times they are too melodramatic (Orlando constantly crying about something), other times they aren't taken far enough (Dave spending a moment alone with Dean's body in path D. I felt kind of betrayed as a reader that I wasn't able to spend an emotional mourning moment with Dave), and sometimes they just don't make me feel anything (Despite suicide being a very sad issue, Dave contemplating it didn't really strike much of a response from me.)
- I was never able to fully fall in love with the characters. If I were to rank them by how invested I am: Dean > Sal > Tyson > Orlando > Roswell > Dave > Hoss. I like Dean's development cuz he goes from a pervert to a real sweet and considerate guy, while also having a clear internal conflict. Tyson's is probably the most conflicting for me because he clearly has a massive internal struggle that's interesting to follow, but Dave's excuses for Tyson's absolutely horrid behavior (physical abuse, attempted rape, extreme verbal and emotional abuse in path D) makes me hate both Tyson and Dave.
- This might be a bit harsh, but I hated path D with a passion. It was extremely frustrating to read and I had a very poor reading experience. I didn't enjoy following the POV of a character as absolutely pathetic and useless as Dave. The only reason I stuck through it was so I could go on a genocide route and kill everyone then Dave.
- The repetitious lines are a bit distracting. "We filed into the room", "a chill went down my spine", characters talking about coffee or Dave cupping the mug in his hands 500 times.
I suppose. I think it could go either way. In my playthroughs, I always had this lingering doubt about what really happened. Was it Chase? Was it socketman? Was it a possessed Chase? Was it something entirely different? And it finally gets resolved in TJ's route. But if you play TJ first then you don't have that mystery/suspense factor anymore. But I also understand the shock value of the twist is probably a lot greater if you play his route first.
I just finished every route for Echo, all of route 65, and all of the current build for The Smoke Room. I can't even keep track of how much time it took, but probably like 35 hours in total. It's really amazing that all this quality content is available for free.
I would highly highly recommend playing Route 65 and The Smoke Room before playing Echo. They made my playthroughs that much more intense. The order I played through everything was Leo -> The Smoke Room -> Route 65 -> Flynn -> Carl -> TJ -> Jenna.
If I were to recommend an order to play it would be: The Smoke Room -> Route 65 -> Carl -> Leo -> Jenna -> TJ -> Flynn
Leo's route was probably the most gut-wrenching. Like I felt sick after finishing it and I couldn't start the next route until a few days later. Which is wonderful for a horror game. Unfortunately, I just was not satisfied with the ending, it felt very quick and I was like, oh, that's it?
Flynn's route had to be hands-down my favorite. The ending just had me in complete constant full-body chills. It was extremely intense. Definitely recommend playing this after all the other routes.
Carl's was pretty good. The most unique of all the routes I'd say. It shares the least amount of story with the other routes, so that's why I recommend it first. I wasn't a fan of Raven though, he just annoyed me whenever he spoke.
TJ's route was the least enjoyable for me, unfortunately. I don't want to be rude, but this one felt kind of unfinished. Or like it was still in the drafting phase. And Julien was like an even more annoying version of Raven lol. Although I really enjoyed how Chase's character evolved and the ending.
Jenna's route is a close second to Flynn's. So many super super creepy moments giving me full-body chills. I was so stunned and creeped out that it started making me emotional, like I was feeling sensory overload or something. It was very intense. This one is filled to the brim with references to Route 65 and TSR.
Anyway, thank you TheEchoProject for making this game and releasing it for free. I really really enjoyed it. I can't wait for the future updates to Echo and TSR!
I just finished Echo a few minutes ago after about 6-8 hours of playtime. I kind of have mixed feelings about it, but I'm mostly happy with my experience. I would give my playthrough an 8/10.
I'm seeing in the other comments that every character seems to have their own route, and I haven't even seen half of the screenshots on this page during my playthrough. I played through Leo's route, but I'm excited to try the others!
Positives: The writing is superb as I've come to expect from EchoProject. The spookiness and tension are really effective. It's a real "page-turner". I felt like the characters were all interesting and unique with their own personalities. In VN's, a lot of the time the choices don't really change a whole lot, but in this game, it seems like your choices have a really big impact. The illustrations are incredible. There are parts of my playthrough that made me sick to my stomach, which is really great for a horror story. The music and sound effects are really nicely used. The UI is also really unique and clearly a lot of effort when into it.
Criticisms: I wasn't really "satisfied" with the ending I got, unfortunately. And I felt like there were a lot of questions and interesting things brought up, but that never got answered/resolved. The game being in 480p took some time to get used to. I didn't mind the fact that the backgrounds just seemed to be real photos with a painterly filter on them, but it did take away some of my emersion when the background lighting did not match the time of day as it was described in the text, Leo's bedroom being one of the biggest culprits. Also, like 3/4 into the game, I started seeing a lot of spelling mistakes.
Comparing this to Adastra is not really possible, and I've only done one playthrough of Echo, so my opinion might change later. I'd say in terms of atmosphere, this game is stronger.
I downloaded about 20 interesting looking romance visual novels without reading any summaries or comments. I've completed 5 of them, with just having finished Adastra tonight after about 10 to 15 hours total playtime (was hard to keep track of time, but this game is realllly long. I actually looked into it and this VN is about the same length as the first Lord of the Rings book.)
I just want to preface by saying I don't identify as a furry. I don't really know anything about furry culture, but Adastra is by far the best romance visual novel I have ever played in my entire life. The relationship with Amicus is probably the best-written romance I have ever experienced in a video game. The climax and conclusion made me sob harder than I've cried in quite a long time. I'm still quite shaken and am very sad that it's over.
All of the visual novels I've played usually follow some sort of formula. Like a lot of little choices, you choose your romance branch, and the story is fairly short. Adastra isn't like that at all, it's literally just a full-fledged novel that's put into visual novel form. My two small criticisms would be there there isn't really any transitions going from one "act" or "chapter" to another, it's all continuous, so you are sometimes forced to take breaks at awkward moments. Also at times, the pacing can become a little too slow and exposition-heavy. But these are pretty minor criticisms.
In fact, this game was so amazing that I'm scared to play my 15 remaining games because I'm scared that they won't be able to reach this level of quality.
