Post by TrickyJoe in Discussion and Feedback [Spoilers Allowed]

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I've had a fab time with this, and so has my son (14) for whom I printed a separate copy. He assiduously followed the instructions and highlighted only the given words until the proper time; I spotted what was going on in #4 and completed it, then was on the lookout (but couldn't do them all until #0). On the other hand, he noticed the reason for the doodle on page 10 and had to tell me, and he quickly got what the codes at the bottom were (which I didn't twig to at all, despite it being really obvious in retrospect, especially on #11! Which made #1 a lot harder).

I am in favour of the with-zero version, which we used: the confirmation of the suspected rules is very helpful.

(But on that note, perhaps a bug? v1.17 had a total of 150 for the with-zero version but v1.19 landscape (ie with zero) has a total of 144.)

I like the new checkbox at the end; I do think it's a good idea to let the user know they've seen "the ending". I do The Listener cryptic crossword, and there's often an endgame that involves highlighting something or writing something below the grid, to wrap everything up nicely, and it's very satisfying. Would there be any value in having the checkbox text be (eg, apologies for how hackneyed it sounds) "The word searches are done / _______" and a box or line intended for the player to write the final message on. That idea could be terrible, ignore it at will and you're obviously a better designer; the idea is that more than a score or checkbox, the player is asked to enter the final thing that it's all been building up to, and the context (and the cheap rhyme) confirms that it's the right thing to have written.

My own journey at the end involved not noticing the meanings of the even-numbered leftovers and thinking it was all a bit random, until I revisited it and read #4's item in the grid "incorrectly". Fortunately that quickly got me to the end.

Anyway, loved it, great work and well done on finding so many fun things to do around the word search concept. I've been spreading the word among my peers. Oh, and I came here from the Thinky Awards too.

Cheers,

Steve

Playcebo76 days ago (1 edit)

Ooh interesting, nobody else has mentioned starting at #4! I did purposely make all the words orthogonal on the off-chance somebody would. I wonder if anybody will start sooner than that... I suspect #3 is the earliest possible (with its small green hint in the printable version).

Poetic considerations aside, "The word searches are done / _______" would actually be counterproductive since the checkbox is for the players who just found "as you now have won" and thought that was the whole message. I might revise the checkbox message to "Fill out 12th word list" or "Write 12th word list" or something. (I assume you found the full message since you mention the "meanings of the even-numbered leftovers"?)

(By the way, I reduced the listed total from ___/150 to ___/144 in v1.18 so that players like JoePlaysPuzzleGames won't worry that there's 6 secret words if they forget about Puzzle 0. And to give stuck players a hint that there are 12 groups of 12.)

TrickyJoe76 days ago(+1)

I see what you mean I think, that extracting the final phrase and reusing it in a different context leads to more problems. I was thinking about the possibility of not picking out the final part of the message, but really I suppose it's more likely that someone would miss the full message itself (but I think in post 1.17 versions you've added more letters to the "notes" part which should make it clearer). I'm probably concerned about nothing. :)

(Yes, I had the whole message and was being unnecessarily cryptic about spoilers.)

My son finished this evening and found the final leftovers (then struck off the "extra" A). Interestingly he didn't go to highlight it in the grid, but he did write it in the final slot on #12. He also enjoyed it very much.

Fair enough on the 144 vs 150!

Playcebo76 days ago (2 edits)

I do like the idea of somehow checking or requiring that the player gets the message, but I'm not sure how to do it.

I could perhaps make the blanks more enticing to fill in, at least for the printable version:

https://imgur.com/a/VAZhG0Z

But this might tempt players to try solving it too soon? And it might be too helpful? (e.g. spoiling puzzle 6) And tedious when solving on PC.

TrickyJoe76 days ago(+1)

Re the blanks on #12, I'm pretty sure my son didn't bother with them for the longest time because he could just go back to previous pages to refer to them, so had no need to write them down (and even then wouldn't have written them backwards in 1.17, but probably would have done with the newer hints).

How about this idea - 12 checkboxes on each page corresponding to where the words would be written, which may inspire the player to write each word down and then check it off. Checking boxes is satisfying and it's easy, and perhaps it encourages us to write in the thing that's being ticked off to make it more satisfying? So the simple thing with no details is offered, and paradoxically we spend more effort (writing the words to find) just to get the small dopamine hit of a tick.

(Whether the boxes are always to the left or always to the right, or always on the inside or always on the outside, I don't know.) Separating out the blanks like that feels unnecessary to me -- having the faint horizontal lines with letter hints (that I see in 1.19 vs the 1.17 I solved) seems to me a huge improvement already.

I also think a player doesn't care about the order of items (#1-#10 don't use any order; possibly the two zodiacs _could_ use one, but does that make the player look for ordering in the others that isn't there?) -- and they may fill in the #12 word list in the order they're solved! (I filled it in in puzzle order, but went down each column in turn instead of going row by row, which didn't help.) Possibly they respect the order in #11, where it does follow the ordering of the puzzles, but it's just as possible that (if they write the categories in at all) they write the first two above KEY where there's a big blank space. Having placeholders (lines and/or checkboxes) to show the word placement in #11 may encourage more careful placement in the word list, and thus help guide the player to correct placement in #12. (Again the new blanks with some letters on #12 helps hugely.) And does that mean it's needed on all puzzles, and does that add too much clutter?!

Playcebo76 days ago

Oh right, I forgot that players don't care about the order! Thanks for the tip. That actually makes me more inclined to use the separated blanks, to give guidance on which word goes where... otherwise players might think the D clue is for REVILED instead of DRAWER. Plus, that'll help avoid the situation where you went down each column. I will keep the bottom hints uncovered.

I don't want to add blank lines to #11, as I want to officially reveal the 12 Words twist at #12, but I might add one green glyph to #11 to discourage players from placing word randomly at the top.

(By the way, every puzzle does have some sort of ordering, but sometimes its just alphabetical or has an arbitrary starting point.)

itch.io

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