Post by Sirius W. in An Appreciation of Ancient Songs and Instruments

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Sorry. I didn’t mean to steal your thunder!

I really appreciate you holding off on talking about Orestes until finding a good translation. And, even better, putting it into context! While there was a translation attached to the video I posted, it rather misses the sense of the text. That’s one reason I didn’t want to point it out. The translation you posted here is much, much better. Anyone who wants a translation of the Orestes fragment, use MalPerMeCheMaffidai’s!

I really like your two videos, too. The live performance is great! It’s sung and played with real spirit, which I really appreciate.

The more academic video is interesting, not least because of how much information is clearly presented on the screen at any one time. It raises a rather nice point, too. This video uses a different set of intervals to the other Orestes fragment videos in this thread. It uses quarter-tones, whereas the other videos use semi-tones, along with some other slight differences.

I may be wrong about this, but I believe this is because of ambiguity in the notation. This notation is so old, and we have relatively little of it, that we can’t be completely sure what it represents. Those small intervals could be interpreted as a semi-tone, or quarter-tone, or even as smaller increments (at that point, the notes are essentially the same). The only way to know for sure would be to find more material to compare against! Of course, if I’m misunderstanding something there, please do correct me!

Interestingly, this isn’t the only fragment of Euripides’s music to survive. There are also two fragments from ‘Iphigenia in Aulis’, one of which has alternation between Iphigenia herself and the chorus. I gather these are fairly complete fragments, and I have the impression that enough information survives to produce short performable versions – much like with the Orestes fragment.

Curiously, though, I’ve yet to actually find any performances of them. Does anyone know why that is? Is there something odd about those fragments?

Also, complete aside, but I’ve also just come across this. It’s not ancient, but it reflects on the Labyrinth. Says Ariadne: “For ‘tis a Lab’rinth of more subtle art, To have so fair a face, so foul a heart.”:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Ariadne%27s_Lament_(Lawes%2C_Henry)

MalPerMeCheMaffidai2 years ago(+1)

It seemed necessary-- being music for drama-- that the text be available (for reference, it is the William Arrowsmith translation). But yeah, there is some unclarity in exactly how to read the music due to a dearth of example or guidebooks or whatehaveyou. I even found one performance of the Orestes piece that is strikingly different than any posted so far-- I only didn't link it because I just kind of don't like it. Haha. But yeah. I have kind of shitty tone-sense, so I didn't pick up that other performances were evidently not employing the quarter-tones. I figured it was just some weird shit with how modes might work, mostly. Haha.

I had to look up the Ipheigeneia In Aulis fragment you mentioned, because I couldn't remember if it was because it wasn't consecutive lines or what-- but it turns out why it doesn't have any recordings is that, because it's not in a strongly strophic section, where it would be known to have repetitive phrases, it can't really be reconstructed from having the start of one line and the end of another, and such. Here it is from the ML West book of ancient Greek music fragments:

There are a few other interesting fragments from otherwise unknown plays, such as a fairly extended monologue (with some gaps) from a satyr play (which I think is actually in the game as some flute bullshit that Argos plays with a drum), and a few stray lines of Tecmessa from a non-Sophocles Ajax play. The latter has some recordings, but I believe the former does not. The first one I'm linking because it has the sheet music, but I am not terribly fond of the super breathy performance-- the second one holds its own better and is more believable as what you would hear as a dramatic performance (though maybe, Ms Soprano, some clearer/crisper consonants would be appreciated...):

There are some gaps, but the translation given by West is: "With suicidal hand and . . . your sword, Ajax son of Telamon . . . because of Odysseus, the villain . . . wounds, he whom we miss..."

Speaking of Ariadne and opera, there is another work that treats the exact same subject as that Henry Lawes composition you linked-- there is the famous Monteverdi aria "Lasciatemi Morire", Arianna/Ariadne's lament on Naxos-- early opera/florentine camerata works being inspired by ancient Greek music-dramas in the first place:

(translation available if you scroll down here: https://www.girolamo.de/single/g11005E.html )

Sirius W.2 years ago(+1)

Thanks so much for the information about Iphigenia in Aulis!

I think my problem was that I slightly misinterpreted the sources I was reading. They went into some detail about the structure of the music in this fragment, and various stylistic approaches used in the melody. I got into my head that this meant that the fragment was in good shape. I hadn’t thought that all that information could be determined even from a heavily damaged papyrus. Oops!

The image you posted is a really nice one, since it gives a good indication of how much damage there is. It’s a real shame that we can’t make more of it – although I suppose we can be thankful that at least those small portions of music survive! It’s a tantalising window into a musical period that is so nearly lost to us ...

By the way, don’t worry too much about having trouble hearing quarter-tones! That’s actually really quite common. At least in modern Western cultures, the ear is trained from an early age to recognise semi-tones as the smallest unit of music. Quarter-tones appear so rarely that the ear isn’t trained to recognise them. Because of this, it’s easy for listeners used to Western music to confuse semi-tones and quarter-tones. I know I do!

Thanks also for posting Tecmessa’s Lament! I wasn’t aware of it, and it’s quite striking! I rather like the chromaticism, and some of the dissonant intervals (the end of line two is great). I think it’s interesting that I would naturally associate both of these features with a lament – although, given the large expanse of time between then and now, that may well just be a coincidence.

Good choice on posting the Monterverdi, too. It’s a fine, fine work, and it’s great to have a good excuse to listen to it again! I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Lawes was aware of it. It’s entirely possible Monteverdi’s work inspired his own setting. At the time Lawes was writing, Italian music was becoming increasingly popular in Britain. Scores was being brought over from Europe, and composers were studying and copying the continental styles. Lawes made strong use of the new Italian style first popularised by Monteverdi. You can hear the similarity in styles between the two Ariadne videos we posted, I think!

I’m in danger of getting off-topic here, but just a brief aside. Compare those Ariadne videos to the one below. This is British, based on Greek/Roman myth, but predates both Ariadne works by a few decades. It’s in a much more ‘British’ style (which really means that it uses older Italian influences!). The work describes how various important deities from the Greek/Roman pantheon give honour to a famous mythical British Queen: Oriana. Since the video doesn't mention it, this madrigal is by John Lisley. It looks to be his only surviving work!

“Fair Cytherea* presents her doves,
Sweet Minerva singeth,
Jove gives a crown,
a garland Juno bringeth.

“Fame summons each celestial power
To bring their gifts to Oriana's bower.
Then sang the Shepherds and Nymphs of Diana:
Long live fair Oriana.”

*Cytherea (‘Lady of Cythera’) is another name sometimes given for Aphrodite.

itch.io

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