Silveradotim I had 4 riddle keys so as you suggested I used one and it removed the sprite that always beat me to the treasure, so thanks for that. I was not aware that this was possible and I have not seen any guidance on this problem, there must be many people who must fail at this puzzle - the rest os the puzzles in the dungeon are a breeze by comparison. Anyway thanks for for your help . This is at least my forth play through and the first time I got the treasure int this puzzle - It was a magic apple by the way - Cheers