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(+1)

The real issue is, that most games do not have many ratings. Solving an issue for games with less than 10 ratings is not gonna happen, imho. And games with 100 ratings do not have this issue.

Downvoting a game for personal taste or opinions is actually a good faith rating. Players are not quality testers giving a paid review in alpha test. They tell why they would not like the game, or in most cases, just rate negative without saying why. Same with many positive ratings: they do not reflect the quality of the game.

Your way of pruning ratings is not improving the rating system. Worse, it would destroy the little trust it has. Taking the average already evens out good and bad ratings. You need a lot of ratings to start considering removing statistical outliers. But if you do have enough ratings to have a statistic, taking the average is sufficient and what's expected for a 5 star rating system.

Simply canceling out a good rating, because a bad rating is coming in, is unfair (even with a threshold). You math does not work out. The average is going down, if you remove a good rating. Your example only works, because you chose a bad example of a game with a perfect 5.0. Of course 5.0 is staying at 5.0, if you simply change the number of 5s there are.

Try it with 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5 . That's 4.25. Add a "bad faith" 1 and it would be 3.89. Remove the "bad faith" 1 and a "good faith" 5 and you have 4.14. The rating went down from 4.25 to 4.14.

And that's if you would be able to detect an incoming bad faith rating in the first place. But if you could do that ... the solution would be to remove the bad faith rating - be it a 1 or a 5. And apart from fake ratings by fake accounts, a bad faith negative rating cannot be distinguished from a good faith negative rating. Just as you cannot distinguish a genuine 5 star rating from your friends rating your game up for enouragement. 

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But there are not really any "good faith 1s", and when there are, then the average rating would we very close to 2 anyway.

Your example: 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5, adding a one here is not deserved and can be seen as in bad faith.
Your bad faith 1 example only reduced the average from 4.25 to 4.14, and saved one bad actor from taking it to 3.89.

An example of a "good faith 1s" would be the reverse of your 2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5, making it 5 4 3 2 2 2 2 2. In this case a 1 could be justified.

This example changes the score from 2.75 to 2.55 using the original rules, but reduces it to 2.42 with these new rule, Making that 1 have an even bigger impact when a game TRULY is bad.

And this works for exactly as good if there are many ratings too. Like if there is a forum of "pure christianity+" that gets together to downvote games with bisexual contents, or having people give "1/5, didn't play, as you stated it contains AI use", or "1/5 why are there so many horror games on my main page, go away!", or "Why did you state you vote X on your Facebook, I vote Y, so you get a 1/5".

The comparison between rejecting the use of the Plagiarized Slop Machine and hating bisexual people is, uh... iffy.

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If you don't like something, why play it? Or should we rate things 1/5 just based on our beliefs?

I made the post because of a campaign against one person that received so many "1/5 reviews", even on his straight-games, that he published the reviews... and the reason for the "1/5" votes was that some of his OTHER games contained gay themes. So while he had a lot of 4/5 and 5/5, a bunch of accounts added a lot of 1/5 just to try to force him to focus on straight games only. 

But even so, I still don't think games should be rated 1/5 without playing them because of AI either. Because I know a lot of games get that too. For a new developer, that cannot draw and has no budget, having them use some AI art can still be a way for them to be creative. Like you could probably use to learn some free 3d-models too and make some visual novel by setting these models in different poses, BUT such developers do not give artist money either, they just don't get review bombed. In the end, the main problem is that the artists receives less money? (and sure.. that AI slop looks ugly, etc, etc). But in the end, these artists would not have gotten it from like 95% of these people anyway - the only difference is that these creators would just not have been able to be as creative and make their games.

But enough about AI, it was not the reason for this thread.

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"But even so, I still don't think games should be rated 1/5 without playing them because of AI either. "

Well, I do believe that it is entirely fair to give plagiarized stuff a low rating without playing it, because plagiarism is bad and artistically bankrupt. I also believe that it is fair to give a game a low rating without playing it if it is already clear from the screenshots and product page that it is lazy, effortless slop. Both of these rules apply whether AI has been involved or not, but these days, most slop is automated.

You're the one who brought this up as an example of invalid opinions that need to be algorithmically suppressed and as a similar level of injustice as brigading someone for being queer and making queer content. I believe it is fair that I get to argue why I do not see those things as remotely comparable.

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Sure, but other people can ALSO see that it is AI-generated. And they might not care about your 1/5 vote, they just want to know if the game is good or not? And these votes just makes that harder?

I agree that big companies using AI is bad and sad, but I personally do not care if a small kids first garage made game contains AI images.. as he just would not have hired an artist anyway.

I just don't agree with you that you should hand out a bunch of 1/5 without playing a game. Just don't vote? As those votes you are adding just doesn't help anyone? They can make people feel sad I guess, so if that is you goal? Like increase the sadness in the world? No artist will receive money from you adding that review. And if some people really like AI games, they will probably still play them, and then notice that AI games rated 3/5 is somehow better than regular games rated 4/5 and just start searching for more AI games - and just enforce their view that AI-games are clearly superior?

I still don't want to defend AI games though... but there are good uses. Like I have played a game from one developer that uses 3-d to generate his scenes, but added some AI use for generating books in bookshelves, to not have all of them look the same. And that was a fast and smart way to solve a problem, using modern tools. But I guess I should change my 5/5 rating to a 1/5 because of AI use, as that will surely help people in the world somehow. I mean he did use AI once, and no artist received any money - and his game is at least somewhat well known - yeah, he really should have a 1/5, even though the game was really great.

> they just want to know if the game is good or not

And I rate those games 1/5 because I think the game is bad and want to let other people know about that. That's what ratings are for.

 a bunch of accounts

I believe you meant: fake accounts, not bunch of accounts ;-)

Itch does remove those, but it can take very long. And for some ratings, they might disagree. Or just forgot in all the swamp of other issues they get requests about.

I agree that people should only rate games they are interested in. They need not necessarily have played them, but it's just lame to rate things for which you are not the target audience.

For those situations with few votes you should also not underestimate counter votes. People that might not have rated at all normally, but see the game having a bad average and deciding to give it a bump, because they think the game is (literally) underrated. It's also a reason why this downvoting business will might achive the opposite what people think it would. A situation with a bunch of most likely fake accounts is completly different though.

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Sorry for all the text. I got carried away and I can type fast. If you want to see how Itch handles ratings adjustments, there are some discussions about how ratings in jams are handled. There are systems in place to deal with the number of ratings. A 4.5 with 10 ratings is not the same as 4.5 with 20 ratings. There they do have solutions for small amount of ratings. But only to compare them to other games in a similar situation, like being in the same jam.

But there are not really any "good faith 1s"

What does 5 or 1 (or 2, 3, 4) even mean?

On Steam you have a clear question: would you recommend the game? Yes/No? There is no middle ground. Does it mean that a "No" translates to a "1-Star out of 5 - would not play again" rating? Unfortunately, in some way, yes, it does.

Do you rate 1 on games you do not like (for whatever reasons, which includes disliking the company for including a root kit drm system or other meta things, like their dlc policy), do you rate them 2, or 3, or not at all? Everyone will have a different answer here.

Or do you rate 4 on the games you like and only 5 on your favorite games? Wait, there are favorites and there are all time favorites. So better rate 3 on good games, 4 on your favorites and 5 on the things you play again and again. That leaves 2 for the average games and 1 for games you did not like.

I hope you get my point here. Because I very strongly disagree with your notion that there are no good faith 1 star ratings. Players are not game critics that are paid to give consistent ratings of games according to some defined criteria. Everyone has their own valid views on what the 5 different numbers mean and when to use them. And some people will only give 1 or 5 stars. While others will only give 5. People giving the full spectrum are rare in my estimate. Giving a rating at all is already a big deal on Itch.

and when there are, then the average rating would we very close to 2 anyway.

So your assumption seems to be, that a game has an objective rating and players rating that game will only deviate from that rating by very little. Like the objective rating of a game is 2.5, so with the standard deviation of 1.5, people can rate it from 1-4. Whereas this other game has an objective rating of 4.5 and obviously players rating it less than 3 deviated too much and therefore gave a rating in bad faith.

Your solution to just weed out the bad faith ratings and try to preserve the apparant average when doing so, is very similar.

But it is the other way round. The "objective" rating emerges after many (>100 at least) people give their subjective ratings. And this includes people that will downvote a game for lame reasons. Or upvote it for reasons that are not any better.

2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5, adding a one here is not deserved and can be seen as in bad faith

You do not know why the ratings are that way. So you cannot claim any knowledge at all about how deserved a new rating would be. Even if you disagree with the newest rating of 1, it would just be your subjective opinion. People have different opinions. One person's trash is another person's favorite game and vice versa. For all you know the ratings of 5 might have been undeserved.

Giving a rating of 1 is not the defining attribute of a bad actor.

2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5, making it 5 4 3 2 2 2 2 2. In this case a 1 could be justified.

Ohhh, you assumed the ordering of the ratings were of significance. I just counted up to have every different rating, except 1 and added some 5s. Then I added a 1 and then removed a 1 and a 5 to show that the average still goes down if you remove a 1 and a 5 and thus showing that this system does not preserve the average. 

But no, you cannot claim any knowledge about justification here either and it also goes again into this assumption of a correct objective rating. Where any nonconforming rating is somehow unjustified.

The average is calculated by looking at the data. You do not look at the average to say some data is in bad faith.

that gets together to downvote games

That's an abuse of the system. A review bombing. It should be reported to the platform, so they can take action. Itch does take action, but they remove fake ratings in bulk and that can take a good while.

Also, if the accounts are not fake, but genuine persons, they might rule, that this is no different from a book club reading a book and collectively voicing their opinion about that book. Though if they do that systematically to just downvote certain things, Itch might still take action. They also do take action against fake upvoting.

But you were talking singular "bad faith" ratings and how to remove them from cacluation of an average. I shall repeat my opinion about this. A solution for games with only 10 ratings ain't gonna happen. And games with 100 ratings don't need it. And actual abuse of the rating system should be reported to Itch. Giving a 1 star to a game is not abuse of the system. Giving it to hundreds of games, just because they share a tag you do not like, would be abuse of the system though, imho.

To use your example of the 1 star with the gay comment. Maybe the rater would have wanted 2 persons to be gay. Can't be gay by yourself, so the 1 person was seen as a token character and received very negative. Or the person did not read description and was surprised to encounter the topic and was disgruntled by that and left a 1 star. I assume you paraphrased examples. For an actual bad faith example, it is not very bad faith. Bad actors usually would hurl insults and worse in harassment ratings. Or use fake accounts. For both the solution is to report them, and not change the rating system itself.

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"A 4.5 with 10 ratings is not the same as 4.5 with 20 ratings" - absolutely, and itch will not know what you would think, that could be a 1 or a 5 or something in-between. So in reality if you see a game with only one vote of 4, you cannot make much assumptions, as after you played it and added your vote, it could be anything between 2.5 to 4.5. And that itch has this is good, I'm just saying my change would not make it worse.

Well, maybe a better solution would be to use the median, and add some extra calculation layer on top of that so that not all games have too similar scores - maybe X% of the score comes from median, Y% from top Z%-percentile, Y% from bottom Z%-percentile, etc, etc.

Another change could be that you would need to have downloaded a game, and waited at least 5 minutes after that, to be able to vote it. Probably still wouldn't really turn down trolls though.

And sure, there are good faith 1s. But also note that a 1 will always affect the score (except in my kind of bad and unrealistic all 5's example). But if you see the following examples, the system only makes it so that if the scores are centered high (2 3 4 5 5 5 5 5), your 1 vote affects the score less and if the scores are really low for a game (5 4 3 2 2 2 2 2) your 1 vote actually affects the score more.

"Ohhh, you assumed the ordering of the ratings were of significance. I just counted up to have every different rating, except 1 and added some 5s. Then I added a 1 and then removed a 1 and a 5 to show that the average still goes down if you remove a 1 and a 5 and thus showing that this system does not preserve the average. " Yes, it is intended that the score goes down in both cases. See above, the 1s just have less or more of an impact depending on the vote distribution. The vote still counts. Lets say a game has an average of 4. As it is now you could vote 5 and slightly increase the average, or vote 1 and tank it. I.e. inherently your vote affects the score more if you vote 1. This change just adjusts that.

"But no, you cannot claim any knowledge about justification here either and it also goes again into this assumption of a correct objective rating. Where any nonconforming rating is somehow unjustified." - again, it just weights the value of 1s lower if the distribution is high and higher if the distribution is low. So nonconforming rating are still counted. It is not like your vote doesn't count.

From my view, you propose a solution to a non-issue. And to make it worse, I do not think your solution would work.

The solution to rating abuse is to remove the abusive ratings.

So, would your solution make it any better? The harrasment ratings would still be given. The developer would still be harrassed. The score would still go down, no matter how you calculate the average. And if the issue is already "fixed", why bother with removing fake ratings. We have implemented a solution after all.

So, would your solution make the rating system better for everyone? Like developers with very few ratings? Or users expecting the rating score to say what exactly? An important point. What do users expect the rating score to say? Do they expect a simple average or do they expect some convoluted math that flattens the rating and makes it nice?

On Itch, giving a rating is already a rating in itself. 1.0 million of the 1.3 million game here do not have a rating score. My advise to people trying to downrate the thing they do not like, is meant serious, even if it might read tongue in cheek. The smirk between the lines stems from the irony that people downrating things are actually promoting the thing they do not like. But again, if they used fake accounts to manipulate ratings, that should be reported. Each rating has a report button, in case you did not know. But that should only be used for fake and abuse and harrasment and not to try cull 1 star ratings.