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> So, if hypothetically, I, a trans woman before you jump my throat but presume a cis straight male, wanted to make a game that involves offensive depictions of LGBTQT+ peoples getting raped, dehumanized, treated as sex toys, cultivating a audience around that YOU may fervently loathe, you support that?

I would defend your right to do that with my dying breath. I think you underestimate just how strongly I feel about censorship of fictional media.

The communities I've surrounded myself with over the past few decades have focused on content far more controversial than this game, often involving content I cannot personally stomach and have to look away from every time it's mentioned.

But I stay in those communities because they are good. They have helped prevent the suicides of several of my friends, and I cherish them for that. No matter how horrific the content appears to be, there is always someone who needs the cathartic release of seeing it realized in some form or another of artistic expression.

> Exactly. If you do, you're a degenerate.

That's certainly an interesting choice of words. Is preventing suicide degenerate? If so, I'm proud to be degenerate. If not, then you need to re-evaluate what you consider 'degenerate' to be.

> And what the fuck is with these long rants in the texts to necro comment threads? Just say transphobia and homophobia turns you on and let everyone know what a degenerate you are.

As I said, I think you underestimate just how strongly I feel about censorship of fictional media. You are attacking something that is at least adjacent to media that has saved lives. Your willingness to continue discussing this long after you initially brought it up (I saw how recently you yourself had posted in other threads about this) tells me you're willing to debate this out, or at least pretend to.

So lets debate this out! Most others won't care enough to try to convince you that you're wrong, and most of the ones who do aren't likely to have the time or willpower to do so for as long as you have been posting about this in here. I'm unemployed, have way too much time on my hands, and have an absurdly high tolerance for bullshit.

I'm willing to explain, and re-explain, and re-explain, in different ways and using different contexts and analogies over and over and over again.

Are you?

> Guess what? If we would've censored THOSE evil people than none of this would be happening.

I'm not against all censorship in general. I'm against censorship of fictional content, or more generally, I'm against the destruction or prevention of existence of any noun that, by existing, would lead to more nouns existing than would have existed if that noun had never existed. Fiction does not have any way of preventing the existence of, nor destroying, other nouns.

The only exception is things like propaganda that comes in the form of fiction that claims to resemble the real world, to convince the reader that the real world is like the fiction that the propaganda depicts.

In that specific scenario, it is 'case by case basis', with a primary focus on scrutinizing the claims made outside of the fictional work about the fictional work being analogous to real life. Such claims are always made outside of the fictional work itself, because within the fictional work's own narrative everything is 'real life'. That is, if a character in a book says, "In real life, this is like that," it is understood that the character refers to the fictional reality they reside in as 'real life'.

Thus, it is still always true that the fiction itself cannot be evil, but it IS true that sometimes people read fiction as analogous to real life, and sometimes the author intentionally encourages that via propaganda. And depending on what the propaganda says, and how the fictional world is meant to map onto the real world, and how that affects people's opinions in ways that either lead to more nouns or fewer nouns overall in the Universe... Determines whether the propagandized statements relating to the fictional world could be considered good or evil.

> So no, censorship is a GREAT thing, as long as the LGBTQT+ friendly side is in power, because it's obvious cis people are enemies in general to my existence.

Most cis people would not care if it weren't for lies spread about the LGBTQ+ community 'grooming children' or other such nonsense. I agree that censorship, when properly applied to propaganda to prevent mass harm against a unique group of people, is ultimately good. I have never said anything counter to that.

But labeling all cis people as an enemy is also a form of evil, because the definition of an enemy is a person or group of people who you want to defeat, and said enemy is likely to take that to mean that you want them eliminated from existence.

Continuing to use rhetoric like that will cause cis people - who are the majority, mind you - to want to attack you more.

This is why I consider certain concepts to be my enemy, not specific people or groups (most of the time; there are exceptions). I don't hate conservative 'christian' people spreading hate against the LGBTQ+ community, but instead I hate the concepts and ideas that lead them to spreading that hate to begin with, as well as the hatred itself that they spread.

As much as your way of speaking pisses me off, "I would defend your right to do that with my dying breath. I think you underestimate just how strongly I feel about censorship of fictional media." that's admirable and respectable. 

"The communities I've surrounded myself with over the past few decades have focused on content far more controversial than this game, often involving content I cannot personally stomach and have to look away from every time it's mentioned." May I ask what kinds of communities, out of curiosity?

And apologies for the strong choice of words, you just came at me strong and I felt a strong worded response was necessary. 

"Thus, it is still always true that the fiction itself cannot be evil, but it IS true that sometimes people read fiction as analogous to real life, and sometimes the author intentionally encourages that via propaganda." How I interpret this game to be honest, even if I know the creator has the best intentions in mind. Plus, that's HIGHLY subjective, so you can easily make the argument this game is like that.

"But labeling all cis people as an enemy is also a form of evil, because the definition of an enemy is a person or group of people who you want to defeat, and said enemy is likely to take that to mean that you want them eliminated from existence.

Continuing to use rhetoric like that will cause cis people - who are the majority, mind you - to want to attack you more."
Well if the string of laws and attitude from the last year aren't evident enough, I consider cis people as the greatest enemies of the LGBTQT+ community, so yes, I do generally loathe cis people, especially men, and could care less about their problems and if anything hope their situation worsens so they know how they feel.

Out of curiosity, are you a transgendered or cis person?

> May I ask what kinds of communities, out of curiosity?

I have no problems with that, but their mention makes payment processors angry and as a result their mention would probably be an Itch ToS violation. The only thing further I'll say is that I am exclusively in the 'fiction only' side of those communities, and in no way, shape, or form condone such things when they happen in real life. In fact, I actively and vehemently condemn them in real life.

> And apologies for the strong choice of words, you just came at me strong and I felt a strong worded response was necessary.

Yeah, I think I can say the same here. I didn't respond to you saying I was acting like you were rude because, well.. To be fair, I was a bit rude myself. I do think your initial posts in here have seemed rude to me, and several of your responses to me, but to be honest I don't actually have a problem with you being rude to me, so I didn't really care to point it out. To do so would have been hypocritical, because I was rude to you in the same way you were rude to me, and in my mind the most likely cause of that is both of us feeling like the rudeness is justified and warranted.

But even if the rudeness wasn't justified or warranted for either of us, it's still understandable for both of us to think it was, and thus understandable for both of us to be rude as a result.

So yeah, no need to apologize, but apology accepted regardless.

> How I interpret this game to be honest, even if I know the creator has the best intentions in mind. Plus, that's HIGHLY subjective, so you can easily make the argument this game is like that.

That's why I focus on the words and posts made outside of the game, and not the game itself.

As a hypothetical, imagine a game that is designed to simulate the effects of racism, and lets you play as a racist that does various racist things.. To show you the devastating effects of that racism on the NPCs you affect. Like, showing you a report at the end that details how they've lost their job, couldn't afford healthcare causing their wife to die, and so on.

An actual racist might see all that while playing and laugh, being like, "Oh GOOD! HAH his wife died!"

But someone who is racist more subconsciously due to larger societal influences at large might play the game being only subconsciously racist, believing that they're not making any racist decisions... And then be shocked at and disturbed by the report at the end.

This is the sort of thing you see in, for example, Undertale's genocide route.. Where you have the option to kill everyone, and the game gets progressively less fun with towns being empty due to people fleeing from you for their lives.

But imagine in that hypothetical racism simulator, that someone who does not think they are racist but has subconscious racist tendencies, joins the game's community forums to complain about the end report they got in the game.. Saying that they aren't racists, tried to play the game as non-racist as possible, and don't like how the game is seeming to claim that he's racist.

Now, lets say the creator of the game responds directly to them.. But lets split this into two Universes: one where the game's creator intends to point out how subconscious racism can exist, and another where its creator intends to manipulate people into becoming more racist.

In the first, the creator explains what sorts of events in the game result in a report like the one being complained about, and explains that this is still racism, even though the person doesn't believe themselves to be racist. Explains that it's not their fault, it's all learned from their environment and society, but that's why they made the game: to bring awareness to the problem.

In the second Universe, the creator could do a few different things. They might try to convince them that, "Hey, you're not racist, and that's not a racist result! That person got what they deserved for non-racist reasons!" Or they could try to deepen the divide between races by saying something like, "It's satire, man! They claim we're racist for things like that, and just can't accept that we really aren't! I'm just showing how these stupid people think about racism and how it's all bullshit!"

But in the end, the goal of that second Universe's game's creator's replies is overall to either convince the complaining player that it's okay to have these subconscious racist tendencies, or to drive division in people who are against racism into thinking that some of the people they agree with are against them.. Which is a stark contrast to the first Universe's game's creator's replies, which are meant to convince the person that they are subconsciously racist, and this is why that matters.

In both Universes, the content of the game is 100% identical. But the surrounding rhetoric and purpose is vastly different.

Like.. Can you imagine a world where Toby Fox said that the genocide route's purpose is to give players a feeling of dominance and power? The game wouldn't need to change one bit for people to revolt against him for such a thing.

> Well if the string of laws and attitude from the last year aren't evident enough, I consider cis people as the greatest enemies of the LGBTQT+ community, so yes, I do generally loathe cis people, especially men, and could care less about their problems and if anything hope their situation worsens so they know how they feel.

You're falling for the 'Us vs. Them' mentality that malicious people with power want us to have. They know that not every cis person hates the LGBTQ+ community like they do, but they want to increase the percentage of cis people who do hate LGBTQ+ people.

The easiest way to do that is to make LGBTQ+ people think that cis people as a whole hate them, and then make statements targeting cis people (as in, cis people as the target audience of the statements) where they point to LGBTQ+ people hating cis people and use that as evidence that LGBTQ+ people as a whole are lunatics that are against the entire rest of society.

It can be tiring, but whenever I see people on, for example Twitter, talk about trans people as if trans people are delusional and should be removed from society? I try to convince them otherwise in much the same way I try to convince you the same about them: that yes, there are people who claim such things, but that is NOT all, or even the majority, of them.

Though to be fair, when it comes to them, I point to their own posts and tell them that 'their side' already has the power to actually do this, and that means that while trans people lack power and cannot be a legitimate threat to them, they have power and are a legitimate threat to trans people.

> Out of curiosity, are you a transgendered or cis person?

I actually just went over that a bit earlier in a response to someone else in this reply tree. The topic of why I'm into this game came up, so I explained it, and for completeness I contrasted the fantasy scenarios I'm into (relating to this game) to my actual gender identity, and how they differ.

The TL;DR is that I do tend to somewhat default to 'cisgender', but if someone prefers I have a particular gender identity, I will have that gender identity instead.

What I didn't say in that post, is that the bit toward the end (where I mention the rubber sex doll identity) was actually a big influence on my identity. A particular good friend of mine did prefer me to identify as a toy.. And when thinking about it, I realized I actually did identify that way to a large extent. It fit several parts of my real life identity, online identity, and in general how I thought of myself.

So when figuring out how I felt about my own gender identity and how to express it, part of that process was breaking down how I felt about that and the other identities I'd assumed for other people, and figuring out an abstraction that covered all the use cases. And because I do tend to default to just 'cis', it felt fitting to tack that on at the start as the default case.