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videodream

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A member registered Apr 23, 2017 · View creator page →

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(2 edits)

Reading your response, I realize that my issue is mostly with how the manifesto is written. Maybe that's my fault for taking the post too seriously, but I also think if something is written in a deliberately inflammatory way, I think it's only natural for someone to be annoyed (I apologize for being rude). I appreciate you elaborating on your thoughts, and I agree with a lot of what you say here.

I do think that, unfortunately, a lot of new devs have a completely warped idea of what "indie game development" is. I've heard new devs say horrifying things like "I just want to make a small game, like Hollow Knight", they have no concept of anything smaller than that, or at least they can't understand why making anything smaller than that would be worthwhile. Everything is filtered through the lens of successful products and breakout hits. Part of the problem, I think, is that a lot of people (especially in America) don't really grow up creating things purely for the joy and richness creativity can bring to their life (and to other's lives). I think loving creativity for its own sake is something you have to learn, and unfortunately I think it's easier to learn this at a younger age. We're really trained to see creativity as a tedious means to an end (AI is probably the most extreme expression of this idea), as if the creative act is only valuable because it can produce something which can then be sold. There's so much pressure to commodify everything: your silly jam game, your shitpost, your little playable poems. It sucks!

I actually do think people should deliberately try to influence the culture of games, as unlikely as it may be for that to actually happen. I don't think it's about being about being "important" or being happier as an artist necessarily, but if you think something is rotten in the culture of games, then I think it's good to attack that through your game. We need to present alternatives to the capital G Gamer, because unlike us itch devs, they truly may not know another world is possible. I've heard gamers refer to The Last of Us as an "indie game"! I would even go as far as to say that it's especially important to do this in commercial games, because that's where you're likely the have the most impact. I don't think that there should be such a rigid separation between steam games/commercial games and itch weirdos (I guess I'm a hypocrite in this regard, because I only make free games on itch). I think we should take advantage of the fact that you can quite easily have your weird personal game live in the same venue as Call of Duty 46 or whatever, as this may not be the case forever. This is maybe the best time in the history of games to even attempt to influence the larger culture surrounding games. The vast majority of us probably won't successfully inspire change for the better in games as a whole, but it's worth it to at least try. At the very least, we might plant the seeds of influence that could grow into something in another generation. We might look back in 20 years, if we're still around, and think "damn, we missed our chance". Of course, as you say, it probably shouldn't be your priority. Making something that you love, something that feels sincere to you is always going to be the most important thing (this in itself is a subversive enough act to be culturally influential, I think). But, somewhat on the contrary, I guess I also do agree with the notion that devs should be realistic with their commercial products, to try to set themselves up for success if they can. There's some kind of happy middle ground that I have trouble defining in concrete terms.

Anyways, sorry for the long reply after an already long reply.

"First we should prioritize being content with ourselves and our worst games. If we happen to make culture along the way so be it."

I agree. I like that idea. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Your post made me think of this video of John Cassavetes talking about filmmaking, specifically the part starting at 2:14. Maybe you've seen it, but I thought I would share it anyways.

(2 edits)

I'm not trying to be rude, but I think your idea that people who "enjoy making making games with artistic value" are all doing it as some kind of affectation, as if they're all just chasing clout or potential accolades as some form of personal salvation is just completely ridiculous and a pretty miserable way to view art and creativity, sorry. Most of the artists/gamedevs I know are completely unknown, and make art (art that tries to be meaningful) for like, a handful of people, truly for the love of the game. They will likely never win any awards, they will probably never earn some kind of mainstream prestige for their work. Most of them don't charge money for their games.

And also, this idea of "if you're going to charge money for your game you should just earnestly embrace the idea of being a ruthless capitalist"? Huh?? How is this inspiring any kind of positive change? Don't we have enough people doing this already? I know you want artists to be "responsible" or something and make things that have a chance of succeeding and earning money, but like, I think this is just a very apathetic of the games industry. It's not at all empowering like I think you maybe meant it to be?

The idea that "if your game isn't absolutely terrible then you are doing it wrong", again - huh?? I know you're sorta gesturing towards this idea that artists shouldn't concern themselves too much with pleasing an audience, that they shouldn't obsess about polishing their work or whatever, and I actually agree with you (partially), but I also think it's perfectly natural to think of your audience and try to give them a reasonably polished or entertaining experience. Lots of people who make things love to make things that are specifically for an audience, they like to play the role of the entertainer. I know we usually view "entertainment" through the cynical lens of AAA gaming/soulless corporations, but there is a kind of genuine/sincere desire to entertain that you'll find in many small creative communities that isn't rooted in trying to manipulate you or drain your wallet. They simply want to give you a good time, that's part of their fun. Why should we police these people, it seems ridiculous. Again, I think there's something to be said for the idea of "needing" to please an audience as a form of oppression (it can easily get out of hand). I think you saying something to the effect of "hey don't obsess too much about pleasing people, just make stuff and have a great time", is actually an empowering message that I think more people need to hear, and is probably the only idea here I really found myself nodding my head at.

"Every time you think about making GOOD art or EXPERIMENTING WITH THE GENRE you have started making games NOT for fun." This is where I became convinced that there was some layer of irony I wasn't parsing, and maybe the joke is on me. But like, come on. You can't seriously think that experimenting with a genre isn't fun? It's extremely fun! It's maybe the most fun thing you can do when working on a game! Kill the cop in your head! NOW! HE'S RUNNING! STOP HIM!!!

(4 edits)

This resonated with me. It's almost impossible to predict which creative acts end up being "important" or "meaningful". I've tried to make "important" things that felt like total duds, and I've made nonsense that felt very important/memorable/meaningful/whatever.

Personally, I've found it's better to shift my focus towards making something that is sincere or honest as opposed to "important" (a term that is far too vague and fickle). For example, I've read plenty of manifestos in this jam that I think were trying very hard to sound "important", but failed to really connect with me. I think your manifesto served as a gentle reminder that sincerity and honesty is what I connect with most, and that "importance" doesn't really matter all that much.

lovely and inspiring

absolutely majestic

I really loved this, very inspiring

inspiring, thank you.

the shader wasn't made by me, it was made by Keijiro Takahashi: https://github.com/keijiro/KinoDatamosh

I just hooked it up to my trigger and customized some of the values and stuff.

it's one of my favorite things to play around with in unity, I use it all the time

this was cute and fun, good job! I think this is probably the first game I've played that uses two separate windows

I really loved the atmosphere and attitude of this, especially loved the counting sheep scene. my only issue is I got stuck for a while on the opening platforming segment and the boss fight, but maybe I'm just a bad gamer! but even still, it was a cool and inventive experience

good stuff, please make more!

I loved this. I could fly around in this place forever

This "uplifting" feeling will pass within a few days - All The Best.

I love this so much. honestly one of my favorite things on this site

Lol this was great. I loved that simple little character creator and all the funny messages. I'll be sure to remember gladful times