Post by petercordia in Sprint points feel very arcade when you have lots of them

Viewing post in Sprint points feel very arcade when you have lots of them

@Justin Wang: I can see that reworking some items would probably be a lot less work from your end ;)

I would note that in about half the games where I have +SP items, they're technically +Dex items. It's not uncommon for a Dex-based character to never find a single +SP item. Also there are games where getting 19 Dex is entirely reasonable. (If you get the gun and a Dex altar for example)

If you want to limit the SP cap characters reach more effectively, you could also have every odd Dex level grant +maxSP and every even Dex level grant +SPregen. That would also further differentiate SP from Mana.

Also as a player I prefer if +regen item have properties like +50% SP regen, rather than -1 turn SP cooldown. The scaling is different, with the former every next pip of SP regen has a smaller relative effect, whereas with the latter every next pip of regen is more important than the last. Which makes me feel like I have less options, because if I commit I have to really commit, and with the randomness of a roguelike sometimes you can't really commit.

@Random595: with mana-based builds it feels reasonable that you have to use mushrooms to get your mana back up in the late game. It doesn't quite feel the same with SP-based builds. Not sure why.

Random595129 days ago

I don't think SP regen should ever be zero, as it would cause some issues. In the past, there was a problem with the power swing of having 1 compared to 0 SP, forcing everyone to get dex ASAP. This severely limited early build possibilities and was generally just no good. SP not regenerating as a base would cause the same thing to happen again.

An alternative to reduce the time stop effect would be to limit the amount of SP movement you can use to a few per turn, somewhere around 3? This would still give the movement abilities like sprint a purpose, or they could even be changed to increase the cap. That would fix the problem without messing with the balance of duelist, barb with charge, or creating issues where SP can regenerate too fast and be way too powerful. It also guarantees to remove the time stopping issues, without having to remove a lot of SP related items. If the SP items remain, players will either be able to stack SP, or if they are changed to regen, get insane SP regen.

Another important thing about allowing maxSP increasing items to remain, is they are very important for giving more flexibility to builds. If SP items didn't exist, a lot of builds would be forced into more dex. Talking about dex, if it gave increased SP regen this would limit dex based builds a lot. Getting SP back faster is just so strong, there would be few viable options apart from to fully invest in dex. Any changes really need to consider this, as the balance of RF4 attributes is pretty good right now. After your talents are unlocked, you can take most attributes and not be severely handicapping yourself, which opens up a lot of possibilities and is fun.

This would not do anything about the overall SP regen rate, but I would need to understand why you feel that SP regen out of battle feels bad first to have ideas on that. What part of resting for SP feels unreasonable? Does it use too much food, or something else? It feels perfectly natural to me that after a fight if you want resources like SP back immediately you can rest, or grab a shroom.

TheAtiumMind129 days ago

I love the idea of limiting ordinary SP moves to 3 each turn.

petercordia128 days ago (5 edits)

I think I would hate SP spending being capped 3 per turn, because it would increase the mental load, without giving enough in return. But if I (have to) try it out, I might change my mind.

Part of the issue (with the current system) might be that mana-based characters can spend SP to pick up those mushrooms, with Dex-based characters that defeats the point. Part of the issue is that mana-based characters use up SP too, so the shrooms refill SP and mana, which feels better. Part of the problem is that I hardly ever use up all my mana, and I'm often ok going into a fight at 80% mana, but I do often use up all my SP, and I really don't want to start a fight without maxed out SP. Part of the issue (or maybe the culmination of all this) is that mushrooms don't feel effective enough at refilling SP, when they do feel effective at refilling mana. I can't rule out it playing a role that the mushrooms are purple, not blue.
As for why waiting at all feels bad, having to press 'rest' too much slows the game down. And I do like that, honestly, it makes the game feel more alive.

The 'problem' you seem to diagnose, that SP regen would be 'too strong' could be fixed simply by reducing the amount of SP regen. Maybe 0.2 / Dex / turn is too strong, then just pick a smaller number. 0.1 regen every other level would let you reach half a sprint point per turn at the cost of not getting 80 hp.

Getting max hp increases is very valuable to me, with most characters it's worth putting at least 2 points into Strength. I don't see that changing, unless the numbers associated with Dex are too high. (But I can't see the point in investing in Int with Dex- or Str focussed characters, unless it is to buy specific talents. That wouldn't change either.)

As for the equipment, look you can't guarantee getting +maxSP equipment in any particular game. I agree there should be equipment in the game which grants extra maxSP, whether that is by explicitly granting +maxSP or implicitly by granting Dex doesn't matter (to me). None of my or Justin-Wang's proposals would have removed +maxSP form all these items. I think you're making a mountain of a mole-hill here.

If I'm reading you correctly you really like the current system because getting 2 extra SP (from Dex or equipment) is (for you) extremely valuable, and at some point they stop being so valuable even for bow users, and that encourages characters to hybridise, and you want to keep that?

itch.io

Viewing post in Sprint points feel very arcade when you have lots of them