Post by Kubular in No Artpunk II comments

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I like the DIY feel of this, but who is this attacking and why? It feels a little weird tbh to be gatekeeping OSR/NSR stuff. I guess I might be a little bit out of the loop, but what defines Artpunk? And what defines OSR to you? I agree the term seems to have been diluted today, but I'm trying to parse what your goal is here.

I mean this with the utmost sincerity. This is the first I'm finding of the No Artpunk thing.

EDIT: I should have read the essay at the beginning of the book first.

Simply put, would you agree your thesis is that "A lot of OSR material tends put style over untested substance."?

If so, I think I agree.

I like the idea of following the root of the hobby had having a shared b/x language. I'm not a creator so I have very little skin in the game either way. But it seems to me like the dilution and uninspired creations in the Artpunk movement just happened as a consequence of it becoming large. It's just Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap). I don't think it's necessarily a consequence of not having a shared system or ignoring the lessons of Gygax and other older creators.

Once your No Artpunk movement becomes large enough, will you criticize it as well?

PrinceofNothing189 days ago(+1)(-1)

Hi. I am glad you enjoyed it. That is this collection's primary purpose.

The true history of the OSR is by now very tangled and confused. This is a very comprehensive look at it if you have 9000 hours.
https://osrsimulacrum.blogspot.com/2021/02/a-historical-look-at-osr-part-i.html

Simply put, it had an OD&D/AD&D language before it had a B/X language. I would agree there is dilution as a result of an influx of newcomers, but the main problem is these newcomers have not been habituated or 'civilized'. Increasing the pool should increase the amount of good material that is coming out also. This, I think, does not occur in the same measure that it used to.

I think the decay is exacerbated by having neither a culture of practice nor a unifying system which serves as an anchor for that culture. Without it, you go back to square one, stumbling in darkness, endlessly re-invented the wheel. It is a precondition for transcending Sturgeon's law, rising out of the primordial chaos.

I run a fairly popular review blog. I've criticized everything from uber traditional AD&D tournament modules, 5e campaign settings to more Artpunky material. I have a preference, but I've given very positive reviews to works like Deep Carbon Observatory, and negative reviews to, say, The Seven Shrines of Nav'Qar which I find too traditional. My goal is not to destroy innovation. It is to refocus creative energies and encourage engagement with the subject material.

This year it is high level D&D. Keep an eye on the blog if you would like to know more. And happy gaming!

Kubular189 days ago (2 edits)

Interesting. I haven't been able to read the whole blog post, but I'm glad that you agree that people who like playing Monopoly desperately need help.

I dunno how interested in a high level D&D version of this I would be as I probably don't play enough for it to be useful to me, but it seems pretty cool. I guess this is where you're going to start narrowing and lose people like me. Not that you probably mind, it seems like this is an area you're interested in exploring as a passion which is pretty cool.

I'm not particularly attached to the OSR or the purity of it, but I think I can appreciate what you're trying to do and say. Creating a more focused OSR is an interesting goal and its kinda neat to see people congregating around that idea.

Personally, I like the rules-lite approach surrounding the OSR, and the "just play" attitude I tend to see in these spaces online. As someone who started at 12 years old with 3.5e, I don't have the original experience or nostalgia with OD&D or B/X, but I've enjoyed the simplicity and charm. And the fact that PCs don't start off with 10 page backstories, something I was often guilty of which completely blocked my ability to actually play with a group.

I've come to realize I just don't care for the focus on "Narrative" and "Role-Play" in capital letters (PbtA, FATE). Those things tend to be exhausting after a while for me. Fast and procedural play really seem to work for me in actual play which is why I've enjoyed things in this space.

I do wish the categories were clearer so I could understand who and what I'm engaging with online, but at the end of the day if I'm enjoying a game with hp, ac, str, int, wis, dex, con, cha, and xp, and its in a dungeon, I'm playing D&D and that's good enough for me. I don't really care what its called as long as me and my friends are having fun.

Also: Are you still writing on that Simulacrum blog? It seems like the last post was in May 2022.

PrinceofNothing188 days ago(+1)

[Blog]
Its not my blog. Its a good series though. This is my blog.
https://princeofnothingblogs.wordpress.com/

[High Level]

I think its definetely not meant for everyone, certainly not for newcomers, but its easier and more fun then it looks. If you ever get deeper into oldschool D&D its worth a shot. Fwiw when I ran Slyth Hive, some of my playtesters were totally new to AD&D, especially high level AD&D and they loved it.

[More focused OSR]

I see it as a correction. It used to be more focused, now its grown so broad it has become meaningless, so its time to refocus and go back to what it was all about when it began.

[Rules-lites]

Hahah I wrote a medium-vicious diatribe about rules-lites that I named 'the Rules-Lite Sickness' or something along those lines.
https://princeofnothingblogs.wordpress.com/2023/04/26/the-rules-lite-sickness-ga...

I started one game earlier then you, with 2nd edition. I like the lighter nature of the OSR over 3.5e too, but I do think the current rules lite trend is a little ridiculous, and there is definetely a point where you start to seriously cut into the substance of the game. I too enjoy the game part of rpgs much more then the narrative or role-playing part.

[Preferences]

I like my D&D to be challenging, versatile, occasionally complex and about player skill. I think there is an immense wealth of material and experience that has been built up over decades of play that can help people make better stuff.

FYI, if you liked the collection, I have a second one up on Drivethru which is also free. I hope you get some use out of them.

https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/379533/no-artpunk-vol-1

itch.io

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