Post by Sᴜɴʀɪsᴇ Oᴀᴛʜ in American Orthodox Church Model comments

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When I first saw the name of this, I thought that you were talking about a new America-specific jurisdiction of the Eastern Orthodox Church! I really like that you are attempting to speak on practical ecclesiology and wondering about how to reorganize society around an accountable and streamlined church institution.

I wonder, how would you compare your ideas to that of existing historical ecclesiological models? Christians have obviously been thinking about these questions for a long time. I think the main thing that catches my eye here and admittedly sours me on your ideas is the idea of little or no confessional standards for participation. How does this not become Universal Life Church or the Freemasons? Around what is this organizing? What even makes this a church?

I also am skeptical of your aim to put ritual, "mutual aid", "moral formation", and "character underwriting" above metaphysics. This seems to undermine itself immediately, since to proclaim what is aid or morality or virtue is to proclaim metaphysics, and so this seems to unknowingly or deliberately smuggle in presumed metaphysics that sees itself as self-evident. At least to me, metaphysics is so much more important than pretty much any other civilizational issue that to treat it as something to brush aside to search for common ground elsewhere points to your project having an ultimate reference that either unfortunately downplays the centrality of the one true triune God or dilutes the language of church tradition through using the language of church (appealing to Christian sensibilities) toward short-term temporal aims.

Paul said that if Christ did not rise from the grave on the third day, our faith is in vain. I say that we take this seriously. For me, your full project as presented would not make a good investment compared to something like a detailed ecclesiological study of existing church institutions. I would be interested in seeing you address some of the concerns mentioned above and also tune up the mission of this project, tying it explicitly to its metaphysical and traditional dependencies.

I have a good example off the top of my mind of a study of the practical implications of theology on ecclesiological models and subsequently the political climate of a nation:

Compass Rose: Calvinism as a Theory of Recovered High-Trust Agency

oddargonaut3 days ago(+1)

Using your frame I can't really fault any of your criticisms, and really appreciate you engaging, as I know from twitter you are no slouch!

I readily admit to Orthodox and Catholic theology and structure being the weakest wheels in my wheelhouse, but their general historical social functions informed my meanderings greatly. Their advantages and disadvantages helped me understand better the value of centralized structure and doctrine as emergent properties, NOT centrally planned top-down. Some humans along the civilizational and spiritual growth timeline will always need more structured, centralized forms of sense-making. For me, this is perfectly fine.

I also want to be very clear that I personally do not hold myself above practitioners of these "brands" spiritually and certainly not intellectually. I have the highest respect for the Orthodox and Catholic mystics that we, the Scripture Fiends, so frequently have to find in the restricted section of the church library. Without my own mentors blazing that trail and guiding me into a deeper understanding of the faith, I would surely be lost.

I am spiritually and politically Protestant in my mentality. But over the past year, I have found myself loudly criticizing American evangelical churches for being lazy, disorganized, thoughtless, judgmental, lovers of money and comfort, and wasteful of what they have been blessed with. They're my tribe... I will always criticize them the most harshly! When Charlie Kirk got assassinated, my second response was, "ohhhh nooooo... SO many people are going to get hurt and led astray when they rush back into the local Prot church." Likely less so with the more mature structures, to the credit of your traditions.

The name...uhh... I wouldn't be surprised if it bothers you, some casual, cribbing your identity and using it wrong on purpose. In this regard I hope you forgive me.

I chose the name and acronym precisely because it tickled my "pisses off so many different people all at once" bone. I guess I wanted it to attract and repel the right kind of attention.

I intend to read through the Calvinism doc, and think about your specific questions with some care, before responding again. No easy answers here, folks.

Humbly,

Steve

itch.io

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