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(13 edits) (+1)

I gave it couple more hours and it has grown on me. Managed to clear out all contacts in a sector.

There's a lot of very interesting stuff in there. The sector generator is quite nice, it pleasantly surprised me with variety. I love the weapons system. The general feel of controlling something big and heavy through mostly indirect commands. 

I'll focus on problems and improvement opportunities though. I'll just throw some notes at you so forgive me if they are a bit disorganized or repeating.

I know the game is meant to be a simulation of sorts, but I'd sacrifice some of the adherence to the simulation paradigm in favor of pure gameplay and monkeybrain feelgood. Realistic simulations are almost always boring, but the idea that you play a simulation is exciting. So my general mantra for simulation games is - never make a simulation, always make an illusion of simulation. Illusion that's more pleasant than the real simulation but still tricks the player into believing they're dealing with a serious simulation. In short, remove/compress all tedious simulation aspects, amplify all pleasant/fun aspects while not breaking the illusion of simulation.

Controlling the ship is hard. Both schemes have serious disadvantages. I'd think about having a single scheme but delegate tedious/confusing parts to auto pilot.

The ship should feel a bit more agile/responsive, regardless of type. Qucker steering. Quicker thruster change, quicker velocity response to it.

Get rid of the notion of horizontality completely. The main goal of controls is to point the ship into wanted direction. For that, you don't really need the whole yaw-pitch-roll system. You can drop the roll altogether. Roll (and notion of horizontality) is important only in atmosphere/gravity bound flight. In space, it doesn't really matter. It's not important how your imaginary wings are rolled relative to some imaginary plane when approaching the target. To point the ship you only need to adjust longitude and latitude, which translates to yaw and pitch. The roll can be just cosmetic. So I'd use only 2 degrees of freedom and map that to WASD. Optional cosmetic roll can go to QE.

Once there is no horizontality, you can drop the rendering of horizontal plane and you don't need Elite style bars in map view to show target distance from that plane.

All targets should be highlighted on hud, in both views, possibly by putting a square marker around them. A target should display distance and optionally the time to reach it in your current and maximal cruising velocity. You can select any target at any time and tell the autopilot to point the ship towards it, keeping your current thruster state. It can keep doing that during dogfights.

Approaching collectables is slow and boring and the reward is often not worth it. How about this instead: Use the above described autopilot to get the collectable into your range. Once in range, send out fast pickup drones to collect it. You can have multiple such drones and assign them to multiple pickups at once, or assign multiple drones to a single pickup to retrieve it faster. Alternative may be tractor beams with similar function.

Projectiles seem kinda slow. Make them faster. They'll be more satisfying to watch. Make the moment of firing a weapon more pronounced via some audiovisual effect so I know when I'm unleashing destruction. Every weapon phase should have some sort of duration/progress indicator. An enemy that's currently targeted by one of your weapon systems should have a corresponding mark visible on hud at all times.  

I was very close to ships and I couldn't fire and I didn't know why. All blockages/cloaking should be made known. When an enemy in range is clicked on, display all information categories that you can possibly get about it, but for unavailable categories state the reason they're unavailable.

Destroying enemies is hard. I want rewards. I wiped out a whole sector and got nothing for it. Always reward some instant credits on enemy destruction. On top of that let the destroyed ship always leave several pieces of loot you can collect with earlier described pickup drones.

Enemies are too clustered. In addition to organized hard enemies, put plenty of weaker single ships flying around the sector for player to sadistically prey upon and practice fighting. The rewards should be smaller for them, of course.

I'll stop here for now. Will write some more if I think of any.

(+1)

Thanks for the detailed feedback! A lot to digest for sure, some of the more radical changes I'll have to consider very carefully. Did you utilize the hybrid control mode in your further play?

I'll definitely think about simplifying navigation in the way you described by taking the horizon out of the equation, but a full-on autopilot like you describe for following enemies is not something I'd do since I want navigation to remain a manual process during combat. 

Most of the HUD things I'm already sort of coalescing into an update in my mind and many have been suggested before, I agree that more information about weapon state needs to be visible on enemies that aren't under the cursor and also that I need to better communicate sensor strength and its limits. 

As for loot, all collectibles apart from items (weapons and modules) already have magnetism and move toward the player in a tractor-beam-like way once in range, maybe I'll just increase this radius a bit to make it more obvious. Since handling items is very disruptive I don't want to have them move around and potentially overwhelm players when they all show up on your ship at once!

Bullet and missile speed is subject to the weapon randomization and increases noticeably as the difficulty (and thus item quality) goes up, may receive a small bump to its base values. Missiles being slow is intentional, to make both fast enemies and fast players capable of outrunning them. The full version will also include a missile variant (via perk) that is much faster and agile, for fighting small enemies.

A small bounty for every kill is a nice idea, I'll implement that for sure - and I can also add more ambient enemies very easily.


Thanks again, I'd be very happy to also have you on the Discord, we have a suggestions channel there as well!

(4 edits) (+1)

I think controls/navigation is the biggest obstacle for an average player right now and can easily make them abandon the game. You should make "fixing" them number one priority. I could easily see myself sinking 100 hours into this if controls were "intuitive".

Let me suggest the following. It could seem strange at first but may actually work in practice.

Have the camera orbit fully relative as I already suggested. Discard roll and map yaw to A-D and pitch to W-S. Now the fun part. Don't steer in ship space but instead steer in camera space. Since primary goal of steering is to turn the nose towards wanted direction, this control scheme will do exactly that from player's viewpoint. The steering becomes completely intuitive without any need to mentally keep track of how the ship is positioned towards camera or towards any absolute planes.

There are two sub options for the camera when steering this way. The camera can stay put or it can follow the steering rotation with its orbiting. Perceptually, the former will make the environment static while the ship will rotate, while the latter will do the opposite. It needs to be tested which works better, or it can be an in-game option.

This will make both camera and steering, relative to the view and completely intuitive as your control directions map to directions you see on the screen.

You can now eliminate the horizon and the axis markers around the ship. The only thing I'd draw is a simple line going along ship's forward direction from nose to the end of range. This may help visualizing where the ship is aimed.

A cosmetic roll can be kept for both; map Q-E to ship roll and middle button + sideways drag to camera roll. The ship roll happens in ship space and camera is not reacting to it.

As for auto-pilot, it doesn't need to be lock-on. If you click on the target its current position in space is memorized as auto-pilot's aim. The location is not locked/updated to the actual enemy. You'll need to click again. This works similarly to your current pip mode just that you can click on the enemy. I don't know how you currently calculate the pip position but I'd do it like this: if an enemy is clicked, use its position, if empty space is clicked, use the farthest intersection point between mouse ray and ship's range sphere.

I'd still consider full lock-on autopilot option for people who need babysitting or have poor spatial perception.

(+1)

Give the new update a shot ;D

(5 edits) (+1)

Close, but not 100% exactly what I had in mind. Steering still doesn't happen fully in camera space (which sounds weird I know). If the camera orbits 90 deg - yaw becomes roll in camera space. I'd like to avoid that. My idea was to eliminate perceptual alterations/flipping of controls due to viewing angle change, as much as possible. The focus is what is seen in the environment, not the ship.

This is kinda hard to verbalize. It got me intrigued so I made a small demo/test to see if the whole thing makes sense. The idea is to steer almost like in first person view regardless of ship orientation, so when playing, if I want to bring something into the center of the view - push buttons that are in direction of that something on the screen. This I think is best mode of steering in fights where your primary goal is to keep targets in view and your ship's actual orientation is secondary. 

In the demo, when camera is not locked, perceptual control direction flipping will still occur when the look direction is opposite of ship's forward direction, but this could be tolerated I guess. 

I also exposed some other parameters to play with, including camera lag in locked mode, to better suggest that you're actually steering.

Catharage - controls demo by nenad2d

The password is the name of your game, all lowercase.

(2 edits) (+1)

Alright, with your demo I do finally understand what you mean! Playing around with it a bunch I do think it would be more problematic for casual players than the current solution though, because the perceptual control flipping is one of the issues testers have brought up with my original, fully 6DOF control scheme. I had assumed your goal, like that of many testers, was to get to a "YGIWYS" kinda control where the relation between inputs and outcomes is always consistent. The lil' cam lag is very nice. In any case I probably won't have time to implement this before NextFest, so I'll have to see how it lands as is right now. Would you at least say that the new modern controls are an improvement and better for you to play with? I definitely appreciate you taking the time to make this prototype and I'll keep working with it to see where the controls go next! ps. can you send me the lil demo on discord or somewhere so I can have it locally?

(10 edits) (+1)

I'll send you the executable. I can give you the source code as well if you wish so you don't need to reinvent the calculations in case you want to try some of it inside the game.

You can perhaps put something like this as some sort of experimental alternative control scheme into a test build, and see how people react. Maybe it'll be bad for your typical player, I don't know, but as I played with it, I realized I can more easily "do what I intended" than with what you currently have in the game. There's no flipping whatsoever if you keep orbiting inside one hemisphere (front or back)

There's a particularly satisfying (and I'd guess useful) 180 turn maneuver where you yaw or pitch to one side and at the same time orbit the camera to other side to compensate. Try it out.

The main problem with craft-centric yaw/pitch/roll control, except that is exceptionally nerdy ;), is that it's meaningful only if the camera basis is aligned with craft basis, or at least very close in alignment, so that player's mental model of directions corresponds to what they see . In other words, it's for first person or close-behind third person view. As soon as this alignment goes out of whack, the confusion sets in and it becomes very taxing for player to mentally map controls to what they see. It's especially incompatible with free orbiting camera, as the relation between craft and view bases changes from moment to moment. The player constantly needs to look at the graphic of the craft, figure out its alignment on all 3 axes, and mentally re-map the controls to get where they want in the world.

The new controls are better but I still wouldn't call them "intuitive", especially for more casual players who don't have affinity for "realistic" piloting. I'll play some more and report back.

Imo the best way to think about control scheme is to take into consideration what the player needs to do in a typical gameplay loop, and asses which control scheme best caters to it. With classic 6DOF I think you confine the player to the (near) first person view if they want to maneuver without frustration, so they lose the joy of observing what their craft and enemies are doing from various angles while still being able to successfully steer at the same time.