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RIG Riot

A third-person mech-action roguelike 路 By Sage

Feedback from an Armored Core veteran (After playing the Steam test.)

A topic by Bennifer created 40 days ago Views: 105 Replies: 2
Viewing posts 1 to 2

Right off the bat, the menu navigation is incredibly unintuitive. I find myself often confused by what stats do or how they influence each other. The menus in nearly every aspect are quite bad, I understand this is likely something that will be refined throughout development, but they are quite poor as is.  

Rather than emulate Risk of Rain's UI (speculation on my part), you should take more inspiration from Armored Core as that is more mechanically the game you are trying to pay homage to.  

Laser blades are horrible, I'd argue bordering on useless. I'll likely repeat myself frequently, but you should look to Armored Core here. In every AC game, laser blades will carry you forward with momentum, swinging the blade at the apex of the animation. As the "kick" already has this functionality, I think something similar needs to be implemented for laser blades. For direct inspiration, refer to the Playstation One Armored Core games. The PSOne AC games are short enough, that I'd recommend playing them hands-on if you haven't already, for research purposes.

When boosters are enabled (allowing your mech to slide around at high speeds) the jets on the legs should turn off as you stand stationary, if for no other reason than because the ambient noise can be annoying. I'm not sure if this is a bug or intentional? but if intentional for the purpose of telling the player "your boosters are on" I think it is unnecessary. Armored Core handled this in AC5 by having a simple icon on the UI saying "BOOSTERS ON" which also added to the immersion. It may be worth investigating this.  

Shields are both too good, and not very good at the same time. The hitbox for the shield does not make sense to me at all, I'm not sure how it determines whether or not I've been hit. I also have no idea how damage mitigation works? Is it nullified up to a certain amount? or does it reduce damage by a certain amount? I think using a percentage would be more intuitive while also introducing an obvious flaw/penalty. In AC6 percentages are used, similar to how shields work in Dark Souls. Shields also seem to have no penalty? When I get a shield, I see no reason to ever turn it off or disable it, which isn't fun as it isn't a choice; get shield, activate shield, done. They should incur a speed or energy penalty of some kind to deter players from just activating them and leaving them on, that is boring.

The environment is very visually noisy. I often find myself getting lost or confused, even with the big sky beacons. Enemies blend into the background frequently, and I find myself in pain from the eye strain. The environment textures should be a duller and more muted palette, and the enemies should be crisper, so-as to stand out. You should look at the PSOne AC games for inspiration here, while not perfect themselves, the visuals are crafted in such a way that this problem does not occur. I cannot stress this enough, with all the janky and imperfect parts of this game, the visuals are the main deterrent for me to engage more thoroughly, as it literally hurts my eyes.  

In general, and I only say this having watched your dev-logs in the past, I think there is too much Risk of Rain here and not enough Armored Core. The more I played, the more I felt like I was playing RoR with an Armored Core skin stretched over the top. I think the best parts of this game, by a wide margin, are the Armored Core influenced parts, and the weakest parts are the Risk of Rain influenced parts. I think it would be worth taking the time to play through the numbered Armored Core games (if you haven't already) for research purposes. Playing and experiencing those games will be much more helpful than watching gameplay videos. A lot of what makes those games enduring classics that people return to IS the game feel.  

Forgive me as well, that this is overly negative. While I do see potential here, as it is, I can't see anyone playing this game for more than 20-30 minutes before getting bored. An Armored Core roguelite is a unique and interesting idea, a "Risk of Rain: but Mechs" game is not. Why would I play this over RoR? I wouldn't, but if this leaned more into being an Armored Core game that was a roguelite (something that the AC series comes close to but don't do) that would be incredibly compelling, as the main weakness of most AC games is that they 'end' (if you can call that a weakness per se?).  

I'm not a developer, and I don't want to just outright tell you what to do or what ideas to pursue, but if nothing else, I think you definitely need to play and critically examine the Armored Core series in general. I think doing so will only help you and guide you to a more captivating vision for the game. I wish you nothing but luck and hope for the best going forward. I'll be eagerly awaiting further updates. 馃檶

Developer(+2)

Hey there- thanks for typing this all up, I appreciate the feedback! I'll be responding to a few of your points, just know that I'm not trying to argue, just explaining my perception of things and trying to understand.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't like the menus! I recently made some big changes to the in-mission equipment menu to try and make it more intuitive and have largely received positive feedback on that, but it sounds like you would like more iteration there, so I'd love to hear more specifics about what felt bad. The rest of the menus and UI are very directly inspired by Armored Core so I would also love to hear more about what has still felt unintuitive in those as well. It's worth noting, too, that I do still plan to add a way to view explanations for individual stats, and I'm also considering changing the font as I've had a few people complain about the readability.

I hear you on the boosters- to me it seems strange to not have boosters make sound while they're on but I've heard enough feedback about this that I'll likely be adding a separate volume setting for folks who want to adjust that, so hopefully everyone will be happy with that regardless of their preferences!

I do plan to display more details about the various shields' stats to help explain their various resistances, so hopefully that'll be helpful as well. There's a chance I'd adjust some things about shield functionality in the future, but honestly even with shields being as powerful as they are a lot of newer players still avoid them, so I'll keep thinking on further adjustments they could receive that feel fair and interesting. I also think the fact that shields take up a slot that could be used for a weapon is a downside in its own right, but you may disagree.

I know my implementation of melee weapons is relatively controversial- one of the things I loved most about the Armored Core games is the skill expression that's possible, though, and I really feel like requiring the player to position themselves intentionally and maneuver their mech to make the most of their melee is an awesome gameplay feature. That said, I've still heard a lot of criticism about the melee, so I've reduced the startup time recently to help things feel more responsive . I also do plan to iterate on melee more, I'll be reworking the system and adding 8 more types of melee weapons with differing functionality, and I'm also considering adding an accessibility setting that does the auto-lunge for folks who struggle to execute that manually or just prefer it that way.

I appreciate the feedback on the environment, too- I've had a number of people ask that it be easier to distinguish the enemies from the environment so I definitely plan to iterate there! I'm also sorry to hear it hurt your eyes! I've not really received that feedback before, do you think the difficulty in distinguishing the enemies from the environment is the main cause? Are textures too cluttered? Something else? Also, if it helps, I have added a radar system recently to assist with finding hotspots and the transporter, so there's a chance that will help too. Future updates will expand the functionality of that as well.

I will say I'm surprised to hear that you feel there is too much Risk of Rain DNA in RIG Riot- I actually feel that there is very little at this point beyond a little about the structure of the runs so I would love to hear more about that. I agree that the main issue with AC games is that they end, that's actually the reason I started making this after 100%ing AC3 and 6 (I've also played a good bit of 4 and 4a). Ultimately, though, if the structure of the game isn't for you I'm sorry to say I won't be altering the core elements of it at this point. No hard feelings from me if that makes you uninterested, by the way- I can't make a game for everybody, and there are enough people with dozens of hours of time in the playtest that I know there is an audience for what the game already is.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write this up, I genuinely appreciate it. While I am a bit confused about some of the points you've made, I do see that you care a lot about Armored Core style games, just like I do. I'm super excited about the mini renaissance of core-likes happening around us, and I hope my game will help inspire more people to try making something similar themselves.

-Sage

Hey! Thanks for reaching out, and no worries. I didn't mean to come across confrontational at, I tend to just state my thoughts/opinions very directly. At the end of the day, I'm just some guy, no need to take anything I say as gospel! that said, I'll respond to your questions in order.

I think my main problem with the menus, while the AC influence is apparent, it does not go far enough. In nearly every AC game, you are able to toggle between several views at once, which will show you how the various stats are affected on a per part basis, overall basis, and comparative basis. I think the problem is that, in the game as-is, I feel like I'm not seeing enough information to make meaningful decisions. I can see how a part compares to what I currently have equipped, but I cannot see how that affects the overall stats. If this feature is already in the game and I missed it, I suppose there's an argument that it should be more obviously accessible. I feel it's unfair to necessarily complain about the aesthetic of the UI, but it is ugly in my opinion as well. Reading it just doesn't feel good? I'm sorry that's not particularly helpful... I don't know how to properly articulate it, but I feel like my eyes glaze over trying to read it?

As for the boosters, perhaps just reducing the flame effect visually and lowering the SFX to like 30% of its volume when stationary? I'm not sure how you came across the sound effect or if you made it yourself, but it may be worth looking into injecting brown noise into the mix to make it more pleasant to the ear. 
I think it's also worth mentioning that sound effects will play over the top of each other and get deafeningly loud at times; I'm no expert but I think this is a relatively easy problem to solve? I feel like I've seen someone implementing a fairly easy solution in a devlog somewhere? Again, sorry if that's not entirely helpful.

I see your point that the shield taking a slot could be a downside, but in my experience, it's so incredibly good that I feel it's an obvious "best in slot" when it's an option. I'd be willing to guess that new players avoid it because in most other games the shield is far weaker and more "balanced" in a way. I avoided the shield in multiple runs, until it happened to be the first weapon I obtained in a run, where I quickly realized how good it was. It's definitely something that needs further adjustment and experimentation.

Yeah, melee is rough. I will say, the "kick" is incredibly satisfying, so much so that I was completely baffled and disappointed with laser blades. I can definitely see why you chose what you did, but I think the 'skill floor' is way too high to make them remotely viable. I can't think of a scenario where I'd use the laser blade over a kick. 
I hate to repeat myself so much, but in every Armored Core game there is a lunge of some kind associated with melee weapons. I don't think you should necessarily think of this as something that removes player agency or deters higher skilled play, but rather something like recoil on a gun. It will convey more momentum and feel more powerful. Perhaps, you could make it so the longer, bigger, more powerful blades make you lunge less, and smaller blades lunge more? to compensate for their stats? 

For the environment, I think it's a combination of the textures being not only cluttered but also the high contrast within the textures. If the environment textures had subtler details, I think that would alleviate a lot, because right now it's almost like looking at a zebra pattern due to the level of contrast between details. 
I think a radar or maybe even just a compass (maybe a toggle option between the two) is a good idea for sure, in terms of navigation. 
I think something that may help, while being subtle, is to give the enemies a color shift/tint that is complimentary to the environment (i.e. blue-shifted environment has yellow-shifted enemies). I think this could be implemented very subtly while still helping a great deal. It'll also help add variety if each level/stage is visually different, even if it's just the color palette. 
Speaking of color, I think implementing the option to type-in or copy/paste a hex code or RGB values would be very nice QoL for Mech customization.

To address this, I'll acknowledge I was a bit mean here in my initial feedback. I'll apologize if that came off intense, but it came from a place of wanting you to make the best game possible. I'll say again, if it didn't come across that way, I apologize. That said, I think the main thing about the game that feels like RoR is the random enemy crawl, and the aimlessness of the game in general. I think you're on the right track already, but progression should feel more impactful. 
I got a "rare" version of a missile pod I was already using, and I didn't notice a meaningful difference other than it fired more missiles at once. I had a similar experience with a shield, where a normal shield (perhaps due to the confusing stats) appeared to have better stats than the 'upgraded' ones that I found. 
I feel enemies should have some degree (or an illusion of such) of autonomy other than walking straight towards the players. Even if they just randomly walk in a strafing pattern or something; if this is already implemented, then maybe it should be exaggerated more? as I didn't notice. I think verticality should be played around with more as well. It felt like most enemies just walked towards me on the ground, and the flying enemies were the only ones that made me really look up or move around. Perhaps something as simple as a jumping enemy?  
As for the "structure," I don't think it's fundamentally flawed per se, it just needs refinement of some kind. A goal to work towards other than just loot. If there were, say, permanent upgrades similar to Vampire Survivors like "Earn double currency" or "retain one part for the next run" that were signposted to the player and made the game experience more compelling. Like, "Oh, if I make it through three levels, I earn double currency on the first three levels in future runs." Some people find it controversial, but almost every successful roguelite has an underlying permanent progression system that can allow even an unskilled player to eventually power scale themselves through the game with enough determination.  

I am also excited for the "core-like" renaissance that is almost certainly impending. I found your devlogs on YouTube several months ago now, so to be clear I am a fan, and I have been following the project. I apologize if the things I said/say are not entirely clear, but appreciate you engaging with me none-the-less! I'm 31 years old, and I played a lot of the Armored Core games back at release. I was actually a FromSoft fan *because* of Armored Core, and I was a bit resentful during the Souls-like era due to the dry-spell. AC6 was a truly incredible game, not only in its own right, but the potential for getting new eyes on the series. I am very excited for your project and seeing where it goes/becomes. Good luck, and thanks again!