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The Forest's itch.io pageResults
Criteria | Rank | Score* | Raw Score |
Sound/Music | #41 | 3.064 | 4.333 |
Overall Fun | #48 | 3.064 | 4.333 |
Art / Graphics | #49 | 3.064 | 4.333 |
Controls / UI | #51 | 2.828 | 4.000 |
Ranked from 3 ratings. Score is adjusted from raw score by the median number of ratings per game in the jam.
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Hello! Welcome to Feedback Quest 6! My name's Hythrain, and I'm one of the hosts and streamers for this event! This feedback is being written live on my stream.
So I knew I was in for a horror experience when I saw this. I was shocked to realized it was an RPG Maker horror experience, which I tend to love because I like seeing how people do the creep factor. And what I played was... interesting, to say the least. However, I worry it's potential can get smeared on some writing faults. With that in mind, I'd like to address this with feedback regards to just the story.
So to start, the name of the game. While your game is vastly different, I would point out that there's already a game called The Forest and is also a horror-esque game. Better to avoid the name "The Forest" lest someone accuse you of trying to get your title promoted via loose association.
Second, there's a distinct lack of questioning going on. The way the main character just go along with everything, only ever questioning things in his mind but never expressing these questions. For example, the main character asks in their mind why this dude knows their names but never expressly asks Lysander when he absolutely should. There should be reason to mistrust things, and the player absolutely should be able to. No joke, I thought the main character was going to stay up in the night with the machete in his hand, waiting for something to happen. I was absolutely upset at the lack of logic.
Third is the ending of the story. First, of course it's Mallory who dies and not Lyam. Second, I actually called that this was going to be a sort of Hansel and Gretel story. Sure enough, dude is a vampire and feeds on Mallory. I was disappointed in myself for not calling Lysander being a vampire either, because sorry but that also feels typical. I also wasn't at all surprised with the ending where Syryus was all "He used to be different" because of course the evil vampire who killed his sister used to be a nice guy. This isn't to say you can't use that angle, but it's everything else you have going on here. And from the sound of it, it's not going to be the horror game I had hoped it was.
Unless you consider this game done, I would absolutely be happy to suggest ways to make things more interesting more directly with you. :)
Hi! Thank you for playing my game.
About the name, I never intended The Forest to be the title, but I've been struggling to come up with a different one. I'm going to change it later on when I get a better idea, and "The Forest" is most likely just going to be the name of the first chapter.
About the main character, he has his own personality and thoughts. While he does think it's weird Lysander knows their names (and there's a reason for this, it will be explained later on), and questions many things during the game that he feels are off, he never speaks out because he's worried he's going to upset and scare Mallory. He doesn't get any chance to speak to Lysander without her present, and he definitely doesn't want to leave her alone in a stranger's house, so he just drops it and tries to stay calm and rational, thinking they were going to leave first thing in the morning the following day anyways. Lysander was very polite and welcoming, and he thought if anything happened during the night he would have woken up for sure (which he did, just not as fast as he needed to) but ultimately he felt like he had no reason to suspect Lysander specifically after how nice he was to them. Even though he felt worried and knew something was off, he tried to stay positive and didn't think one of them would just die during the night like that. That's his choice and his personality as Lyam, the main character in the game; the player has every right to suspect Lysander and not trust him, but Lyam decided to. I played many games, and sometimes, the main characters' actions, thoughts, and personalities don't align with mine. I think that's unavoidable in a 3rd person game. If I wanted the player to be the main character, I would have structured the whole game differently and maybe let them pick the character's name and looks, but in the end this is Lyam and Mallory's story, and Lyam was definitely naive, and that's on him.
About the "ending," there's a specific reason why Lysander picked Mallory over Lyam, and it's hinted at towards the end of the demo. The game and its story are far from finished. This was just a "prologue" to the whole story, and the Hansel and Gretel scenario you thought the game was all about was just its beginning. The rest of the story has very little to do with it, and the main focus will be uncovering Lysander and Syryus' pasts and their true nature. I'm sorry you weren't surprised by Lysander not being evil in the past, but it wasn't meant to surprise the player. Syryus' speech at the end was meant to introduce the concept that the relationship between him and Lysander is not the simple and straightforward master-servant relationship it seems to be.
I'm sorry this isn't the horror game you were hoping for, but it's still far from done. If you still have suggestions and advice to make the game more interesting I would love to hear about it and I'll keep them in mind as I continue working on it, as long as they don't go against the backstory of the characters that the players don't know much about yet. Let me know how I can contact you to discuss your ideas!
Thank you for your time and feedback, I appreciate it.
Ok. So I'm going to say upfront: this post is going to come off as very harsh. It's not my intent to dissuade you from the story you want to make, but to help you improve as a writer. I say this as someone who used to do the same thing you're doing in your comment, which I'll explain in a moment. Just please keep this in mind as you read this comment.
All of your explanations about the characters and the story mean absolutely nothing for two completely different but important reasons that I need to dive deep into.
The first is because this isn't real life, this is a story. You control the events. You control what happens. When you try to use in-story reasons to defend something, you're ultimately missing the forest for the trees because you can change that. Let me create an example to explain what I mean.
I want you to imagine a generic fantasy world where orcs and humans fight. Now let's say that orcs in this world rape defenseless humans before killing them. Now real quick, this aspect is NOT needed by the story. Why? Because it serves no purpose but to just further vilify the orcs, something they don't need. People who read this story are uncomfortable with the fact that the writer put this into the story. The writer defends it by saying "Well, see, it's because the orcs were created by this evil god who blah blah blah blah." It doesn't matter. It's about rape and it's not needed for the story to function. The writer can remove it and it won't change anything.
When you're a writer, you get to choose what stays and what doesn't. If someone is telling you why certain things are just not good in your writing, trying to defend your choices with in-story reasoning isn't defending it. It's saying you don't want to change it and think it's okay despite the massive problems you're creating.
So let's put this into context: Mallory being killed. My feedback was how it was such a stereotypical thing to do, to kill the little sister over the big brother. Rather than stop and go "Hmm, do I even need to kill Mallory to proceed with the story?" you instead went into your in-story reasoning to defend the choice. Think about this honestly: if you rewrote the story to have Mallory present, other than needing to include her would it be so different?
Now this isn't to say you can't just kill a character off. However, it's about how you do it. My issue isn't just that you kill her, but that you do it so early in your story and then have the gall to push a "Please forgive him, he used to be nice" sentiment on the player.
This gets into the second reason: because your characters aren't acting like real people. They're acting like characters in a story.
I want you to imagine the closest person to you in your life. You don't need to name them, you don't need to identify anything about them. Just think about them. Now let's say someone did something nice for you, then a few hours later that someone killed the person you're thinking about right now in cold blood. Right off the bat, think about how you'd feel about that. Now let's say someone ELSE then came to you and said "Please forgive the person who murdered the person closest to you. They used to be a nice person."
Would you actually ever forgive them? No. You wouldn't. They took someone important to you. You'll never get that person back. There's no reason to forgive them but EVERY reason to seek revenge on them, and you would feel it was insulting for that third person to even DARE suggesting that you should forgive the murderer.
Similarly, this gets to Lyam's behavior. Your explanation is "he doesn't want to rock the boat" but let's change this scenario and put YOU in his shoes. You got lost in some woods when a crow drops a letter in front of you with your name on it, written by someone you've never met, that leads you to a mysterious place deep in the woods where the person who wrote the letter is seemingly super nice. Would you REALLY not try to get some answers for how they knew your name? You would trust this absolute stranger that much? If yes, then you're absurdly naive, especially when there are ways to frame questions where you make it clear you're not trying to rock the boat but you're pointing out that you DO need to be cautious, which a genuine nice person would keep in mind and realize. If I were Lyam, I would ask this:
"Listen, sir. You're being very nice to us so I don't have any desire to upset you, but we've never met you before and I must be cautious for my little sister's sake. How do you know our names?"
Furthermore comes that later that night, when it's bed time. Lyam CLEARLY feels something is off. He should be super wary about things. He should be doing things to ensure Mallory's safety when he's not. So again, put yourself in his spot. In his situation, what things would you do? If I were Lyam, I'd have the plan to keep the machete near me all night and tell Mallory this:
"Listen, Mallory. If you wake up in the night and someone else is in here or trying to take you away for any reason, you wake me up. No matter what, okay?"
Even if she questioned it, wanting to know what was wrong, I wouldn't tell her the reason and would insist she promises to wake me. Even a child would understand it's something very serious and to just do it. Now whether she remembers when awake is another thing, since she is a child and it would also be simple for Syryus to trick her to not wake Lyam ("I want to play with you for a bit") but at least Lyam behaved like a real person and thought ahead. Hell, a real person in that situation would probably not be able to sleep at all, driven by adrenaline to NOT trust these strangers as they stay awake all night with that machete in hand. Of course, that has the issue of them succumbing to sleep eventually, leaving an opening.
In short, at minimum you need to write your characters like they're actually people, and at best you should try to come up with ways to make your story less stereotypical.
Speaking of stereotypical, allow me to make a variety of predictions for individual details you'll have about the characters. I don't want you to confirm or deny any of these, I simply want you to read this list and think about how many I'm getting right.
1. Lysander had a sister who he either utterly adored or absolutely hated, no in between.
2. Lysander was abused. Most likely the reason why was for being gay.
3. Lysander was a genuinely nice person who tried to help everyone.
4. Syryus was one of the only people who cared about Lysander, thus why they were partners.
5. Syryus is going to be the one responsible for Lysander becoming a vampire, likely becoming his "servant" in the process to ensure it works.
6. Lysander was twisted by the cruelty of people over centuries, which turned him into who he is now. Alternatively, he became this way after he was the one with power who could push others around.
7. Lyam's quest will be about discovering this person who Lysander was and making him "better."
If none of these are what you're planning to do, then good. You're not as predictable as I'm thinking you are. The more I got right or mostly right, the more you should rethink parts of the story. If I actually got all 7 right, you should stop where you are now and rewrite the entire story because otherwise it's going to be predictable and dull.
Finally, let me throw some more stuff in here to show how you can combat the issues I've brought up both in the first post and in this one.
1. Have Mallory call Lyam as Lyam, not Big Brother. Not only is the "big" part not needed, but this isn't something people do in English speaking. It's more likely for Mallory to call him Lyam, a nickname of Lyam or, if this is actually set in the modern day, something like "bro."
2. If you insist on Mallory being killed, you need incentive for Lyam to want to get to know Lysander and possibly even forgive him. Easy solution? If Lysander can be changed, he'd be able to revive Mallory not as a vampire but as a human herself. This incentivizes Lyam to do these things, because it's only going to be in doing these things that he'd be able to change Lysander.
3. Also in regards to the last one, keep Mallory alive longer. If you need reason to keep the two there, there was a freak snowfall/storm that prevents them from leaving yet. That way, you have her there longer to actually establish a real relationship between her and Lyam, as well as have more time with both of them interacting with Lysander and Syryrus to make it far LESS likely that Lyam would attack either of them upon seeing his dead sister. In fact, you can use this time to begin the process of the player learning about Lysander and making it harder for Lyam to hate Lysander entirely.
4. Legit, try and drop the vampire part and make your own thing for why Lysander and Syryrus are immortal. Otherwise, you got some HEAVY Lestat vibes going on. If you don't know who Lestat is, look up Interview with the Vampire and the Vampire Chronicles.
Let me start by telling you I'm really grateful for the time you took to try to help better my game. I want to make sure you know I'm not upset about your comment at all, and I read all of it carefully while I thought in my mind about the full story I have in mind for it.
That being said, reading through your list of predictions about the story has really told me I am on the right track, as there is just one of them that is true and it's already clearly stated and confirmed at the end of the demo I published, so it isn't a prediction but something you know from simply playing the game. Every other statement was false, so my story isn't really as predictable as you might think. I especially feel the need to clarify something: all the characters in this story that are gay or bi aren't that way because of abuse, but simply because they have always liked men. Lysander was always gay, even in his past, even when he was still a good person and long before he ever met Syryus. The same goes for Syryus himself. They were born that way.
I have to say I'm a little confused by the orc example. I really don't see anything wrong with adding details to characters' personalities. If the orcs are so brutal they rape people, that's just something that tells me, as a reader/player/whatever medium is used to convey the story, just how nasty and bad these orcs are. I want to hear it. It gives me important hints about the characters and makes the story feel more real. If we started thinking that way about every detail, behavior, quirk of any character that doesn't add anything in particular to the main story, all the characters of all the stories in the world would just behave all the same way, bland and plain, with nothing setting them apart.
Even though, as I said, I'm really grateful for your time and for all the feedback you're providing, I think your list of theories confirmed that it's a little too early to have an opinion about what happens in the game and you're rushing to judge something that doesn't even exist yet. There is so much of the backstory of the characters that you don't know, that no one but me and my closest friends know, that I'm wondering how you're judging the events of the game as useless without being sure if they will have an explanation in the future or not. If I can give you a piece of advice, I think when you play a demo and you want to be helpful to the developer, you should keep in mind you're only seeing a small part of the experience. You should remember that before rushing to think, "Oh, this thing that happened here is useless to the plot," because you don't know much about the plot until you've played the full version. Maybe something you thought didn't add anything to the story is actually a crucial event that has a lot of meaning, and you just don't know yet.
Unfortunately, there's a specific reason why Mallory has to die right at that moment, so early in the game. It has to do with Lysander's habits, and it will be explained later on. There is no way for me to postpone her death without completely altering Lysander's character, and I don't really see a reason to do that. Her death wasn't just an excuse for Syryus to be able to tell the player Lysander used to be good. If I'm being honest with you, the whole monologue at the end was completely unplanned, I just added it at the end because it felt right, and Mallory's death had already been decided long before. There's a reason why I created her, if her death so early on wasn't justified I simply wouldn't have made her and Lyam would have been the only one venturing into the forest and needing shelter.
About Lyam's naive behavior, I just thought of an easy fix that would make him falling asleep more believable. I'll implement it in the next version of the game. As for him not confronting Lysander about the names, I already explained myself. Lyam is meant to be shy and weak at the beginning of the game, not able to stand up for himself. You did, however, make me realize that maybe him peacefully going to sleep after feeling something was off is a bit of a stretch. That will be fixed. Thank you.
About Mallory calling Lyam "big brother" instead of "Lyam," I'm not a native speaker, so it didn't sound weird to me, but thank you for the tip. I'll make sure to discuss it with my husband, the proofreader of the game. He's from the United States, and he already went through all the text boxes and fixed anything he found that didn't sound good to him. Maybe he just didn't pay much attention to it, but I'll ask him if he thinks I should change it.
One last thing: Syryus asked Lyam for forgiveness when he was asleep. He wouldn't dare say something like that to his face, not when he just lost his sister. He was mostly talking to himself, trying to process the pain he went through. If you think the next morning Lyam will wake up, find the will in his heart to forgive his sister's murderer, and peacefully step out of his room to go grab breakfast, that's not how things will go. You said Lyam will need to have a strong reason to ever forgive Lysander. While Mallory being revived is not an option, that doesn't mean he'll just forgive him for no reason, forgive him fully, or forgive him at all. It will be actually up to the player to decide, and it will have its consequences on the ending.
Whether you feel like giving this game another chance in the future or not, it is completely up to you. If you decide you're not interested and it's not for you, nothing's wrong with that! Everyone has their own tastes. If you think you'd like it, you're welcome to play the full version when it comes out.
Thank you again for everything!
Hi! I’m BrogioAmbrogio, an English teacher and the editor of this game. I’m from America, Ohio to be specific, and we do in fact use “Big Brother”. A young girl saying “Bro” wasn’t all that common when I was growing up (I’m 22) and it still is uncommon, please remember Mallory is quite young. I appreciate your feedback. Also, I'm sorry I didn't reply sooner, I've been a bit busy with work.
Hi there! The character art was pretty nice and the pacing was pretty good and kept me engaged until the end of the demo! My only suggestions would be that it's a bit strange when the dialogue text overlaps the sprite and it'd be nice to have name boxes to know for certain who is talking or thinking.
Hi! Thank you for playing my game and for your feedback. I'll certainly keep it in mind as I work on the full version!